[Recover Chat] Quick chat for players who got reported only

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Why are people jumping on my back for "playing rank" when 1. even if I played rank, people not ranked need start somewhere. 2. 8v8 is not ranked. 3. why are you assuming I play rank when I did not even bring up playing rank. 4. Feast is a wt sticker, and you are jumping on me for doing it?

It is funny people keep blaming me not being able to play when it is the person spaming "good job" that ran in 1 v 8 as a mnk getting himself killed

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Double checked your thread

I apologize for saying you queuing ranked first (thought you did que solo based on your pages complaining about 8s and that's why I'm saying don't do that)

Second, there's no point about complaining/blaming ppl in 8s
Chat in 8s basically for teaching only

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

It's never been a suspicion, it's been an outright statment.

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So, consider this: They simply said that they were going to restrict chat due to harrassment (based on collected reports or so), YET. . .

. . .They lacked enough collected data to make balance changes for this season. . . Do you perhaps see the disconnect there? How can you get enough data to take away a crucial feature one time, yet lack enough for changes another? How do you ignore 40 pages of a thread of almost entirely negative feedback before responding, and as if the previous 39 pages of dissatisfaction didn't exist? How do you continue to ignore it after almost a year and 92 pages of malcontent? Unless somehow their methods of data collection are so drastically different now as opposed to then, I highly suspect that something isn't quite right about their "data collection", and their canned lines asking for player feedback are so fruitless and empty they're almost laughable.

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Originally Posted by Arthur_Gwen

Double checked your thread

I apologize for saying you queuing ranked first (thought you did que solo based on your pages complaining about 8s and that's why I'm saying don't do that)

Second, there's no point about complaining/blaming ppl in 8s
Chat in 8s basically for teaching only

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Can't teach without chat can you? and yes it was a solo queue, for 8 v 8

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

I am starting to suspect why SE removed the chat..... seeing how this discussion can't be civil

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Did you really come to a forum expecting civility? Most people can't even discern the difference between opinion , and declaration.

As long as hardcore players harass those they play with chat will never be a thing. Before someone claims it was due to mass reports on people trying to instruct others let's take a minute and remember all the parties where biggy bad ass McGee decided to spam full the chatlog then proceed to rain hate speech on the healer or dps post match. These people should have felt the brunt of the corrective action rather than neutering strategy for everyone, but square isn't exactly known for skipping the nuclear option on fixes. Honestly though I don't think anyone important reads pvp forum posts, it's merely a placebo to keep the players appeased. The wool pulled over your eyes if you will.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

How do you ignore 40 pages of a thread of almost entirely negative feedback before responding, and as if the previous 39 pages of dissatisfaction didn't exist?

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Good question? I'd figure they'd take the feedback into consideration and compare it to the raw data, in this case, the comparative number of harassment reports before and after the change - then observe the typical environment seen here on the threads as a sample segment of how things would or could return to.

Then, thus deciding that the initial problem that caused the function to begin with would not simply go away, just because a thread of people saying they're unhappy with the changes. They hear the feedback, they just disagree, or are not satisfied with the solutions or compromises they or the playerbase have come up with in discussion.

There's a thread around the boards that's over forty pages saying we should go back to 1.23 era FFXIV - it does not mean it's the correct course for the game - nor are we ultimately the ones that decide that.

As far as how do you ignore a thread like that? Probably with the same level of patience one must have to deal with a tantrum child. It's there, they hear it. They're thinking about it - but just because someone screams louder does not mean they'e more correct. SE has to deal with the desires of more than just a vocal minority - However, this is simply your dose of Hyristian brand Devil's advocate.

I personally don't have a solution to this situation. I've not seen any PvP community that isn't inherently radioactively toxic and while I do think effectively putting a muzzle on it helps keep the in-battle tone down and encourages outreach within server communities - it does not help at all with strategies or identify genuinely friendly players to build a proper community with. I see this as a catch 22 situation and can't condone nor condemn what SE's done here.

But I won't simply deny the facts of the problem for the sake of personal preference.

I think the better question is - looking at the community as a whole - have we earned the chance to have chat back? I most certainly think turning it on again for a while and testing the waters isn't too much of a risk, so long as it's made clear that if it's too toxic they'll shut it back down. But looking at the threads here, and even the conversations in and surround the PvP Community, including streamers - I'm not confident in the timing nor the current climate.

Perhaps after the next balance changes? There's a lot of salt going around right now.

Spectator point of view, considering SE teased the idea of esports i'll humor it.

As someone who does not PvP in this game, but likes to watch competitive gameplay; trash talk and competition go hand in hand. Look at almost any sport or competitive game and you will find it, it's just part of the beast. That being said you can have constructive trash talk to drive competition and rivalry and you can have trash talk that hurts the community and drives people away.

Because one use of it is bad, does not mean it should be removed; speaking from the same mindset as above it can also be a strategic move to get into the other teams head. This is also something VERY common to competitive and player verse player / person vs person events. Give back the ability for people to talk and let it go, you can always report the real problems. Just dont throw a fit over things like light taunting and you're good because that's sometimes the most fun part to watch when two people are trying to out psych each other while playing at high levels.

Edit: Did some research on the feast, and while I still view my point as accurate I originally thought the communication had open and party chat as I did not follow it pre SB changes so I understand how this post is a bit out of place for the topic since it's strictly party based chat. That being said party and team communication is invaluable and certainly would make things more interesting to watch.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

Spectator point of view, considering SE teased the idea of esports i'll humor it.

As someone who does not PvP in this game, but likes to watch competitive gameplay; trash talk and competition go hand in hand. Look at almost any sport or competitive game and you will find it, it's just part of the beast. That being said you can have constructive trash talk to drive competition and rivalry and you can have trash talk that hurts the community and drives people away.

Because one use of it is bad, does not mean it should be removed; speaking from the same mindset as above it can also be a strategic move to get into the other teams head. This is also something VERY common to competitive and player verse player / person vs person events. Give back the ability for people to talk and let it go, you can always report the real problems. Just dont throw a fit over things like light taunting and you're good because that's sometimes the most fun part to watch when two people are trying to out psych each other while playing at high levels.

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That perspective has been challenged as long as PvP exists, and it seems the professional level esports scenes, as well as the majority of the developers of esports games, do not agree with the concept - and have been repeatedly developing, redeveloping, and defining ways to try to steer the community more positive.

I don't deny that a large number of any PvP community enjoys trash talk - nor the prospect of competitive fun in that regard. However that is a singular perspective and on principle I do not think any game hosting a large community benefits from simply appealing to one perspective.

For me, trash talk is the one of the top reasons why I stay away from the competitive gaming scene these days. I've heard my share of it in childhood and I'm not interested in what someone in the developmental position I was in twenty years ago is fascinating about with my ill mother. I do feel that I still have it in me to play competitively, especially from the analysis perspective, and enjoy pushing myself performance wise. (Even if that's on a bottom tier Meta pick *grumbles at SE for intelligent adjustments already*)

I have to wonder how many these days are like me, and would stay/go away if the community got too toxic due to chat. I will reiterate that my personal opinion of what I see of the community thus far hasn't been promising, and have to wonder if the PvP scene in general just got off on the wrong foot and can never go back. Still, I see the efforts by the heads of communities and leads of games to try to curb this.

But I respectfully disagree with the 'this is how it's always been' mentality. I feel mimicking the spectacle of televised sports does not justify the tactlessness of it all, nor does it really sell the fantasy well to me of true competitiveness as on the professional level, it's literally done for the spectacle of it - and all it manages to do on the esports end is create unnecessary drama.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

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Please let me know where your finding the information on the trash talking being frowned on ( I just want to read some of it for my own personal gain because im sure it is out there) While I agree it should be frowned upon in some cases, not everything is black and white.

You can steer communities in a positive direction and still have competitive diolauge from the competitors. As I said it's potential can be good for competition and rivalry or bad for player base retention. While im all for changing things up in a positive manner, it's not going to change any time soon to the point where it is non existent. As of now, most esports and sports allow at least some form of taunting, gloating, or competitive talk. Keep in mind this only really works constructively with people of similar skill levels / sets. A pro calling a noob a worthless pos for not knowing something they picked up should definitely be frowned upon.

A seasoned player telling another seasoned player that they suck and could be stomped by them can incite rivalry and be constructive for spectators and player driven will to get better for the upcoming match ( I really doubt anyone going into something for the tournament win would be deterred by "you suck" and instead would just want to retort and prove the other wrong, but please find me a case and ill stand corrected). Now keep in mind the only thing I really mentioned supporting was light taunting. Something like that is part of being competitive and can also be used as part of a players strategy adding depth on a player vs player level. Light taunting could be teabagging, could be using a flashy move after a kill, telling someone to get rekt, sending out a message on social media saying you're going to dominate the match tonight, ect and if you have a problem with stuff like this we really see the world through different lenses. At that point it really is a difference in opinion.

I think a customary search of professional Esports players getting suspended/banned/losing sponsors due to inappropriate language/excessive trash talking is more than enough for you do provide that evidence for yourself.

There's a certain tolerance for playful trash talking, but that's not what goes on in the majority of time - that's why companies such as Riot are going so far out of the way to try to tone it down. And the Pros are aware of it, so they're changing their tone to be more playful and positive. We can debate where on the spectrum is 'acceptable trash talk' but there's never going to be a resolution. And frankly, that's not a decision that's in our hands. Most situations of permitted trash talk is often due to "Is this bad enough to warrant a moderator's time?" because you can't really automate it effectively, and support staff is expensive - especially full time staff.

So I'm going to leave that at a respectful disagree and a gentle pointing at your search browser. I'd ask respectfully that you challenge your own perspective on this. Please note, I was once on your side of the debate, and did similar - part of why I ended up with the mentality I have now. Years ago it might have been a generally accepted thing, but that tone is shifting - and looking back, I can't help but support that shift.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

Please let me know where your finding the information on the trash talking being frowned on ( I just want to read some of it for my own personal gain because im sure it is out there) While I agree it should be frowned upon in some cases, not everything is black and white.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I think a customary search of professional Esports players getting suspended/banned/losing sponsors due to inappropriate language/excessive trash talking is more than enough for you do provide that evidence for yourself.
So I'm going to leave that at a respectful disagree and a gentle pointing at your search browser. I'd ask respectfully that you challenge your own perspective on this.

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Wasn't asking for evidence, just what ones you used specifically to read about your side but that's fine. I agree to a respectful disagreement.

Edit: on another note unrelated to the above, there is also an immeasurable amount of benefit for teams to be able to openly communicate as well. As i've watched a few feast matches on a couple streams it's evident teams need the ability to talk to each other.