MCH 6 GCD in Wildfire

I'm not overreacting because as you could realize, I didn't came back on the topic for a while as I didn't care much, but I answered to MauvaisOeil when he came back on it, so saying I overreact looks exagerated x)

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

You can fit 6gcd in the wf+oh window only if you force oh with ft and you start your wf session (I usually start with cd) as soon as ft ticks. If you're going oh with a shot it won't work.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

As I already said that 6th gcd is a non heated split shot with the barrel off penalty.

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And I don't get why you only take the exemple of Aiurily when she failed that 6th GCD into Overheat mode, especially knowing you was the 1rst one to come and tell me it was possible to land 6 heated GCD during Overheat mode thanks to Flamethrower and not doing 6 GCD during Wildfire, so don't come back on it telling that 6th one won't be heated just because Aiurily failed it once. And that last GCD can be a Cooldown instead of a Split Shot, so a 230*1.2*1.05*1.08(*0.25*ally buff etc) shot (= 313potency, it would be a nice difference on all your Wildfire).

Knowing it's possible at 2.40 GCD for 982 total skill speed (which is actually far to be hard to reach without Fey Wind, and maybe technically it's even possible to do with less than that), it would be nice to know if it's actually made for it. But I understand people will keep the current used rotation if they have a bad connection or feeling too lazy to calculate the difference.

Edit : Maybe I lost you by repeating Split Shot everytime as it was just the skill I used to try that 6th GCD on a dummy, but it could have been another skill.

Cooldown is only 150 potency when at <50 heat...actually weaker than split shot...
Dude, there's no magic involved here. Given the way we can overheat and oh and wildfire duration the best thing to do is aiming for a 6 gdc OH and 5 gcd wildfire, period. There's no way to have 6 heated shots under wildfire, not even with 0 ping and max skill speed. We'd need a gcd around 2 seconds to do that which is not achievable unless you ask for enhanced arrows+fey wind+stack sks and assuming you won't clip. Therefore you will gain at most 40 potency if your gcd is low enough once every wildfire.

edit: actually 40*1.08 thanks to hot shot.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

And that last GCD can be a Cooldown instead of a Split Shot, so a 230*1.2*1.05*1.08(*0.25*ally buff etc) shot (= 313potency, it would be a nice difference on all your Wildfire).

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Even if you put it this way, do not forget that even assuming you can actually squeeze another overheated cooldown in your wildfire (which is impossible anyway as I already explained), you'd only be gaining 25% of cooldown potency after buffs because wildfire is basically a 25% damage buff of all the skills and autoattacks you use during its duration. So 313 is not the potency gain you would get by being able to do a 6gcd heated wildfire, it would be 25% of 230*1.2*1.08, so around a 75 potency gain. And I'm not sure OH 20% damage stacks with barrel 5% damage by the way. Again, a very small gain, less than a turret's autoattack.

??? You must be tired, you have a problem focusing on the topic. Cooldown is a 230 potency shot if done during overheat, so that 6th GCD will be 230, not 150. It's not about Wildfire, but about if the Cooldown is done under overheat or not. So no 150 Cooldown or 160 Split Shot potencies in that topic.

Aiurily did 6 GCD under Fey Wind because it makes your GCD goes from 2.48 to 2.40 (I've tested it, so I'm sure about it). So 982 total Skill speed to reach 2.40 GCD is not impossible to get. I don't get why you speak about being max skill speed just with 982. With a 2.5GCD and Rapid Fire, it takes 9.5sec to do 6 GCD without counting the time animation of Wildfire which is very low + the start of your GCD animation (which is very low too). It's things I've already written above, too bad you don't remember, it made sense.

About the 5% from Barrel, it doesn't really matter as it's not really the topic.

You said yourself 6GCD under OH is possible, so 230 Cooldown is possible, then Aiurily (and I) proved it was also possible to reach 6 GCD taken in count in Wildfire with 2.40GCD, so obviously it means we can get all the mutipliers from both.

Edit : Btw, if it was not possible, the best is then a not heated Split shot, so 160 potency, without any boost. If it's possible, it's a 230 multiplied by 1.2*1.08*1.25 minimum (+ ally boosts, + maybe that 5% from Gauss Barrel). It's a minimum of 373 instead of 160 --> a 213 bonus potency, it's far from your 75 potency gain.

What I'm saying is that you cannot ignore the skill base potency and forget about it if it's not during wf, which is what you're implicitly doing here. You should only consider incremental potency gains and instead you're pretending that the 6th overheated shot doesn't exist if it's not executed under wildfire. So the actual potency gain would be 25% of that 6th shot. Right now we do 6 OH shots and 5 gcd wf because it's the best thing to do given the way we oh with flamethrower. You can theoretically do 6gcd wf, 6 gcd oh if and only if you have a very low gcd (around 2.25 seconds) by double weaving ft and wildfire (which is bad since you don't have complete control on ft ticks and chances are ft won't tick and you'll clip your gcd). But again, this is stupid since you'd need arrows and 5 gcd wf+balance> 6gcd wf with arrow, so you don't want that arrow.

My intent was not to reopen a debate about this, TBH.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

My intent was not to reopen a debate about this, TBH.

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I simply wanted to make sure that people don't overestimate this latency issue and are discouraged from playing mch for no reason. As long as you don't clip ricochet, gauss round and quick reload during rapid fire you can play MCH optimally. 6gcd oh wf is not a thing and will likely never be.

I'm really not a fan of OH with a FT tick, but I can't really argue against it. just the clunky design I despise, not the efficiency with it. I just feel any channeled ability should not be intended to be broken midway (or early way here), as the restriction of channeling with no other action and no movement should bring a reward somehow.

FT is pretty hard to fit actually, as using it for AOE will overheat you withouth it taking the damage boost, and overheating withouth it is a long and painfull unneffective way to AOE.

They could as well cut the cooldown and duration by two now, since you already overheat in 5 ticks starting from 0.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

They could as well cut the cooldown and duration by two now, since you already overheat in 5 ticks starting from 0.

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This is what I'm thinking too. Even though I don't mind FT as a skill and how we use it to oh, its increased heat generation made MCH aoe very uninteresting in my opinion. It's basically spread shot spam and ft after we overheat. Not that it was very exciting before that change anyway, but with a lower cd for ft we could at least limit the spread shot spam and it's not like mch aoe is so spectacular when compared to casters' and even brd's aoe damage.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

This is what I'm thinking too. Even though I don't mind FT as a skill and how we use it to oh, its increased heat generation made MCH aoe very uninteresting in my opinion. It's basically spread shot spam and ft after we overheat. Not that it was very exciting before that change anyway, but with a lower cd for ft we could at least limit the spread shot spam and it's not like mch aoe is so spectacular when compared to casters' and even brd's aoe damage.

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5s /30cd FT and 10 heat spread shot would be fine. Aoe is quite busy, compared to dragoon, brd or rdm. But OH feels unresponsive in Aoe.

I only come back now as I prefered to don't come back on it directly. It was too long to be accurate to make you understand the way you won't misunterpret what I'm saying as you did before.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I simply wanted to make sure that people don't overestimate this latency issue and are discouraged from playing mch for no reason. [...] 6gcd oh wf is not a thing and will likely never be.

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So unfortunately, you got me wrong, I never meant machinists were bad or anything, it makes you lack of objectivity regarding the topic if you have such an idea in mind, defend this idea whatever happens, but without talking about it so I could be more clear about it instead of remaining mysterious hoping people won't misinterpret what I'm saying. I love machinist, I don't think they are bad or even in need for improvement, but I don't like having such design detail making people feel like they have the choice about it while actually don't really have it, and possibly making them feel like they are missing something (the part you certainly mean you are afraid people think the class is bad because of this mechanic behaviour). I prefer it to be, or possible, or impossible. I never said machinists suddenly suck because some can and some can't do that.
And I don't see why I should not speak about it because some people could interpret it your way like "lol machinist can't even 6 GCD OH/WF" or whatever stupid idea.

So yea, it's hard to follow you, and it actually started getting annoying as I started to believe you did it on purpose, like counter argumenting yourself. Which made no sense.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

What I'm saying is that you cannot ignore the skill base potency and forget about it if it's not during wf, which is what you're implicitly doing here.

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You did not understand what I did, as I did not do what you say, I was actually comparing what you said here :

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

As I already said that 6th gcd is a non heated split shot with the barrel off penalty.[...] No big deal

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Here, you are the one who said the 6th GCD was a non heated split shot. So it's like saying it was not possible to overheat with that 6th shot. But, at another post you said it was possible to do a 6th GCD in OH. Just, pick a side, you should not say both as it's just non sense. Of course that 6th shot exists even without Wildfire.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

This means it's only a 160 potency weaponskill while the average potency of the other weaponskills you use during wildfire is close to 300. [...] You'd be gaining 40 potency in your first wildfire session only when a wildfire session is around 3500 total base potency.

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It's not a 160 base potency, but a 230 base potency with (at least) overheat bonus if you use Cooldown.
The combo CD-3-2-3-CD (+ G.Round and Ricochet) actually have a total potency of 1967*1.08*1.25*1.2 = 3187, you just added like 10% power to it to defend your idea...
255+295[crit *1.48]+255+290+230+200+300 (crit is approximatively *1.48 dmg) = 1967 potency, adding 230*1.08*1.25*1.2 instead of 160*1.08*1.2 if done just with overheat. --> 373-207 = 166 bonus potency, It's far from the 40 you talk about... And knowing it needs actually 2.4GCD minimum to do it, if you get that skill speed (which is not a lot) it actually means you are able to land one more GCD per minute (I didn't count if it was troublesome for getting overheat every 60sec)

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

You should only consider incremental potency gains and instead you're pretending that the 6th overheated shot doesn't exist if it's not executed under wildfire. So the actual potency gain would be 25% of that 6th shot.

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I was comparing what you said "6th GCD non overheated, so just a 160 potency" with my 6th GCD could be overheated and then use Cooldown with 230 + bonuses. I was not comparing anything else. You make up things to be right, you tell me the 6th hit is not overheated and then when I use your saying of 6th shot not overheated (nor with wildfire) with my version with overheat + wildfire, you come back on it and say I did a mistake to don't count it as I always do but I used your exemple not taking the 6th shot with overheat. Just make sense, it's annoying to speak with someone just defending a hidden idea "machinist are fine" with approximative made up arguments where you just seem to try to trick people into mistakes we don't even do but that you did, saying the 6th shot was not overheated.

All those explanations and this topic is not about saying machinist is bad, but if people still complain about machinist, I suggested in the 1rst post some way for improvement if and only if people still complain about MCH.