Tenacity proven better? (BiS for tanks?) Gear Stat Calc

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

The builds he linked have 360-ish difference in tenacity, which is not even 2% difference in mitigation. Stop assuming every build that doesn't prioritize tenacity to be a build that avoids tenacity. Some of the sets that I'm considering for my end game this tier have like 1.5k tenacity while melding DH on every slot.

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Well if we're going to compare Tenacity to other stats, we need to take both extremes.
Here's are the gears sets I'm referring to:
- Tenacity BiS: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWT
- Non Tenacity BiS (aka, avoid tenacity like the pest): http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWO

Tenacity being the lowest DPS scaling stat, those 2 builds are the highest dps variance you can get and on those sets the overall trade off is ~1.5% DPS increase vs. ~5.5% mitigation.
Whether it's a good or bad trade off, that's everyone's personal decision but neither options make significant difference in anyway where one is "right", the other is "wrong".

DH is good, Tenacity is slightly less good for DPS.
There is no trash substats nor is there a king substat for tanks. Or you might as well call every substat garbage since they all scale within a tiny margin.
A truly garbage stat is spellspeed on RDM because 60% of your gcd's aren't affected by it. Tenacity is nowhere in that realm.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

There is no trash substats nor is there a king substat for tanks. Or you might as well call every substat garbage since they all scale within a tiny margin.
A truly garbage stat is spellspeed on RDM because 60% of your gcd's aren't affected by it. Tenacity is nowhere in that realm.

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This is the biggest things I wanted to get out there. Seems more DH people are just belittling newer tanks specing any other way. People in general saying either DH or Tenacity is garbage. It's simply not true.

At least we know its safest, as a tank, just to throw STR at the accessories. :)

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Well if we're going to compare Tenacity to other stats, we need to take both extremes.
Here's are the gears sets I'm referring to:
- Tenacity BiS: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWT
- Non Tenacity BiS (aka, avoid tenacity like the pest): http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWO

Tenacity being the lowest DPS scaling stat, those 2 builds are the highest dps variance you can get and on those sets the overall trade off is ~1.5% DPS increase vs. ~5.5% mitigation.
Whether it's a good or bad trade off, that's everyone's personal decision but neither options make significant difference in anyway where one is "right", the other is "wrong".

DH is good, Tenacity is slightly less good for DPS.
There is no trash substats nor is there a king substat for tanks. Or you might as well call every substat garbage since they all scale within a tiny margin.
A truly garbage stat is spellspeed on RDM because 60% of your gcd's aren't affected by it. Tenacity is nowhere in that realm.

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Eh no, it doesn't work like that. If you consider the mitigation of tenacity to be good enough to make it subjectively the best stat for you, then your "tenacity BiS" goal is to maximize it. If you meld dh because of its higher dps gain then your "BiS" goal is to maximize dps, which requires you to take into account all the secondary stats, even tenacity. Avoiding tenacity doesn't necessarily give you the highest dps set, at least for now we don't know yet. It's worse than dh/det/crit/sks but that doesn't mean every piece with tenacity is worse than pieces without tenacity. For example I'm not sure if det/ten would be worse than crit/sks considering how slow crit scales at current gear stats. As of now there's utterly no reason to build a set just for the sake of minimizing tenacity, unless maybe you're allergic to it somehow.

Also spell speed affects your gcd which means even your instant cast spells' gcd are reduced. The only non spell gcds rdm have are the melee combo and moulinet, these are the only ones that are completely unaffected by spell speed. I wouldn't say spell speed is garbage for rdm until I see some testing done to show that it scales much worse than other stats.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Lol nope. As I've said it's 30k over 11 minute, unless you're assuming you'll never cap hp at 100% or 0% (1 hp holmgang/LD) it doesn't carry over that way. Look at it this way, if your healer can heal you 3k less in the first phase, that's not going to save them a heal at all. You'll just possibly enter the next phase with 3k more hp. Unless you can preserve this "gain" throughout the entire fight by never overwriting it with overheals on the tank it's very unlikely that you'll be able to save a heal gcd.

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This is my logic. Regardless of whether DH > Tenacity or the other way around, healers are overhealing most of the time so the extra damage reduction isn't going to have that much of an impact. In theory it's nice, sure, but between overhealing and +/-5% damage/healing variation it just seems so negligible either way.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

This is my logic. Regardless of whether DH > Tenacity or the other way around, healers are overhealing most of the time so the extra damage reduction isn't going to have that much of an impact. In theory it's nice, sure, but between overhealing and +/-5% damage/healing variation it just seems so negligible either way.

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Yes most of the time overheals exist due to aoe heals, hot, shielding, crit heals, and healers topping up people before a mechanic that does a lot of dmg. That's why I said that the amount of extra mitigation we can get right now is too small to matter when it comes to healing/mitigation management. If we can get like 2k or even 1k more tenacity over the current max it'll matter because we'd be crossing the point where we can start using less cds for tank busters and spare some cds for other mechanics or auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by Matholwch

I didn't run damage numbers because we aren't talking about those, you are debating the mitigation is pointless. Damage numbers would be an even more minuscule difference. These numbers don't even take into account the extra you would have received from each heal, further granting your healers more potential time to get extra DPS from their rotations.

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What im debating is the fact that the extra mitigation is pointless because it's not going to change the fight for you or your healers at the low level ten currently gives. You aren't going to change your CD rotation based on the amount of tenacity you have and your healers arent going to be examining your gear pre pull and mathing that in to change thier healing rotation. Your gonna pop cds at the same time and your healers are going to Heal you at the same time regardless of if you youbstacked ten or not so I see the increased damage no matter how small as more beneficial.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Yes most of the time overheals exist due to aoe heals, hot, shielding, crit heals, and healers topping up people before a mechanic that does a lot of dmg. That's why I said that the amount of extra mitigation we can get right now is too small to matter when it comes to healing/mitigation management. If we can get like 2k or even 1k more tenacity over the current max it'll matter because we'd be crossing the point where we can start using less cds for tank busters and spare some cds for other mechanics or auto attacks.

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Assuming there isn't a plateau somewhere between now and then. I don't know, I'm not avoiding tenacity, but I am melding direct hit. I'd glady drop tenacity to get my skill speed back up (went from 2.42 to 2.39 now back to 2.43 after upgrades ._.), maybe skill speed isn't technically as valuable but in situations like that I'm placing a higher value than tenacity.

And I don't understand.. If the "tenacity set" is only 300 more tenacity than the "direct hit set" why tf is this even a discussion lol (just doesn't seem like enough difference to even begin claiming one is better than the other)

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Avoiding tenacity doesn't necessarily give you the highest dps set, at least for now we don't know yet.

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I know it's slighty more nuanced than that but still not to the point where it'd make a big difference.
It's pretty pointless to discredit my non-Tenacity set because of it not being the "ultimate" Dps BiS which by your own word "we don't know yet".
It was an example to showcase the scale of variance we're talking about between DH and Tenacity.
But if you have a BiS set with a perfect balance of stats that give 5% more DPS over a full Tenacity build, please share it. I'd definitely go for that one.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Assuming there isn't a plateau somewhere between now and then. I don't know, I'm not avoiding tenacity, but I am melding direct hit. I'd glady drop tenacity to get my skill speed back up (went from 2.42 to 2.39 now back to 2.43 after upgrades ._.), maybe skill speed isn't technically as valuable but in situations like that I'm placing a higher value than tenacity.

And I don't understand.. If the "tenacity set" is only 300 more tenacity than the "direct hit set" why tf is this even a discussion lol (just doesn't seem like enough difference to even begin claiming one is better than the other)

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Because some people only look at the extremes. Just because I don't create my build by maximizing tenacity doesn't mean I'm avoiding it. For example if I craft a set maximizing det while melding dh I might get somewhere around 1.2-1.5k. As of now we don't even know what the best set is, dps wise (unless you write a program to go through the millions of gear/meld combinations and check them one by one), so making a set minimizing tenacity just for the sake of avoiding it is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

I know it's slighty more nuanced than that but still not to the point where it'd make a big difference.
It's pretty pointless to discredit my non-Tenacity set because of it not being the "ultimate" Dps BiS which by your own word "we don't know yet".
It was an example to showcase the scale of variance we're talking about between DH and Tenacity.
But if you have a BiS set with a perfect balance of stats that give 5% more DPS over a full Tenacity build, please share it. I'd definitely go for that one.

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I was more curious in why you'd put "avoiding tenacity" as the priority for your dps oriented set. It's not parry that's literally 0 dps, it scales worse than other dps stats but not by much. I don't know, but for me it makes much more sense to prioritize maximizing the good stats (like det for example, which looks to be better than crit/sks/ten) before avoiding the slightly worse stats. No offense but it looks like you're just cherry picking the sets to inflate the extra mitigation the tenacity set offers.