Job Feedback: RDM

It is funny red mage complain about defensive. You have 10 sec cooldown on charge and back step + flunge that allow kite melees so easily. While I played melee class, red mage was most annoy target kill from caster classes. If we compare summoner that have 0 teleport skills or 0 instant cc skills. Only what you can do use energy drain that heal 1k hp. You can try cast tri bind if you dont die before you finish the cast. I would say red mage have lot more options survive in general.

Napkin math arguments about the differences between a melee class, a turret, and a Job that can effectively alternate between both and is a threat on both fronts. It's fine to sit and look at stats but play the class and actually see it preform. I've no problem against melee, or straight mages.

Bards and Machinests are the most annoying due to their kiting while dpsing, but that's about it. I hear these complaints but they don't really pan out in gameplay to me.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Napkin math arguments about the differences between a melee class, a turret, and a Job that can effectively alternate between both and is a threat on both fronts. It's fine to sit and look at stats but play the class and actually see it preform. I've no problem against melee, or straight mages.

Bards and Machinests are the most annoying due to their kiting while dpsing, but that's about it. I hear these complaints but they don't really pan out in gameplay to me.

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Of course I'm using math. This is an MMO, it's primarly math. All the potencies are there specifically so players know exactly how much damage/healing is being done, it'd pointless to NOT look at math.

And in what world is RDM a threat from range? The most damage they can do without touching any of their melee abilities at all is 2750 potency in two GCDs. Something that can't even be done indefinitely, since they'll run out of MP and must restort to lower potency spells. You can poke, but those functions are just their so you have something to do before the moneyshot.

Also nothing is stopping the other ranged jobs from being a threat in melee range. Their damage doesn't stop just because someone is on top of them, they don't have to stop casting. Is it more dangerous? Of course, being in melee range is dangerous. But they're also not required to be in melee to be a threat, yet if they choose to sit there and use their damaging abilities they still can be, while still having the option of moving WHILE THEY'RE DEALING DAMAGE (obviously this doesn't apply to BLM, but that's because their GCD damage is higher than the other jobs to compensate)

I said napkin math. You're not figuring in timing and damage windows.

A Black Mage needs a full 2 GCDs to cast two spells. This means, if a target runs out of range or line of sight in one GCD, they miss that second attack. It is much less likely for a Red Mage to do so - because of the mechanics of Dualcast.

So yes, it's two global cooldowns, but only one of which is required to be frontloaded by the Red Mage, who can spend the other dipping in cover or following up with an off global cooldown skill (such as a heal, bolt, shifting targets with monomachy etc.

Same goes for the Melee risk calculation. Red Mage's melee cooldown for the first two skills is 1.5s as opposed to the 2.18 of a traited spellcast. No other class has this truncated GCD. You asked why spare the time to use Flunge? Because it's ALSO on this truncated GCD and deals 1000 potency to its target. It dosen't interrupt anything, it hits as hard as Jolt II, and has a faster recast to boot.

Red Mage is all about exploiting damage windows. It's not a factor someone who does not play the job well can understand just looking at potency alone without and understanding of how that plays out in real time.

Yes, a Red Mage only gets 2750 at a time at range before 'risking' melee range, that's more than enough poke to execute someone before they turn the corner though, because the full of that burst happens at the 2.18s mark, not the 4.36s.

And a person who tries to close in on RDM to attack them, risks getting burst 9650 in less than seven seconds ( CaC > 1.5 >1.5 > 2.3 Displacement > Finish) and that includes a free retreat before the finish.

Can a Black Mage outdamage that? Sure, but he's stationary the entire time, must invest more time beforehand to access the full burst and susceptible to having to reinvest the cast time if he is at all interrupted before cast is complete. Meanwhile, each step in RDM's burst combo is instant, you could stun, sleep, and silence him sequentially and unless you were perfect in your CC timing or outright killed him, he'd still get the full combo off.

All these factors need to be considered before crying wolf that Red Mage needs further buffs. Its damage is very flexible and it has deceptively powerful burst, on top of the fact that it is highly mobile. Yes, as a necessity, but that makes it all the more difficult for enemies to keep track of. I'd say if anything it could use a bit more utility in its kit, though an AoE Weight on global cooldown that deals more than its base cast to the first target makes it difficult to chose what other utility to go for.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

They're OP in PVE, they don't need to be OP in PVP as well.

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Considering how completely unrelated the 2 are, a more accurate statement would be "Being OP in PvE is no reason or excuse for it to be bad in PvP."

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

A Black Mage needs a full 2 GCDs to cast two spells. This means, if a target runs out of range or line of sight in one GCD, they miss that second attack. It is much less likely for a Red Mage to do so - because of the mechanics of Dualcast. So yes, it's two global cooldowns, but only one of which is required to be frontloaded by the Red Mage, who can spend the other dipping in cover or following up with an off global cooldown skill (such as a heal, bolt, shifting targets with monomachy etc

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BLM can do the same damn thing. Fire IV is 2.18 secs, and can be immediately followed up by an instant blizzard I (which is instant cast because being in the opposite element makes it instant), that's 3500 potency in 2 GCDs. And let's not ignore the fact that BRD and MCH can do the same thing with no cast times at all whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Same goes for the Melee risk calculation. Red Mage's melee cooldown for the first two skills is 1.5s as opposed to the 2.18 of a traited spellcast. No other class has this truncated GCD. You asked why spare the time to use Flunge? Because it's ALSO on this truncated GCD and deals 1000 potency to its target. It dosen't interrupt anything, it hits as hard as Jolt II, and has a faster recast to boot.

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If you use Flunge, you're stalling your combo by 1.5 secs for whatever arbitrary reason. So now your full combo goes from (1.5 + 1.5 + 2.3) to 6.8 with the addition of flunge because it's on GCD. That's an extra 1.5 seconds that you're vulnerable, unless you use your "escape" early just to get away.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Red Mage is all about exploiting damage windows. It's not a factor someone who does not play the job well can understand just looking at potency alone without and understanding of how that plays out in real time.

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Literally every single damage dealing job is about exploiting damage windows.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Yes, a Red Mage only gets 2750 at a time at range before 'risking' melee range, that's more than enough poke to execute someone before they turn the corner though, because the full of that burst happens at the 2.18s mark, not the 4.36s.

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All the other ranged jobs can poke for about the same amount, while also being able to move BRD/MCH don't even require initial cast times, because they have none.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

And a person who tries to close in on RDM to attack them, risks getting burst 9650 in less than seven seconds ( CaC > 1.5 >1.5 > 2.3 Displacement > Finish) and that includes a free retreat before the finish.

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7 Seconds is not burst. No one is going to go 7 seconds without recieving even one heal during that time unless they're just caught out alone, and jobs shouldn't be balanced around the "caught with their pants down" factor. The most you could argue is that using the first two parts of your combo counts as prep, and then redoublement + Verflare/Verholy is the real burst because it comes in two GCDs. 5750 potency is nothing to scoff at in two GCDs that's for sure, but it comes with the requirement of having to hit people in melee range first to even use it, on top of having to build the right amount of black/white mana to get there. Other ranged jobs have similar requirements (BLM has polyglot, SMN is gated by Aetherflow and Dreadwyrm etc etc.) but they don't have the extra requirement of having to be in melee range to use their abilities.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Can a Black Mage outdamage that? Sure, but he's stationary the entire time, must invest more time beforehand to access the full burst and susceptible to having to reinvest the cast time if he is at all interrupted before cast is complete. Meanwhile, each step in RDM's burst combo is instant, you could stun, sleep, and silence him sequentially and unless you were perfect in your CC timing or outright killed him, he'd still get the full combo off.

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Any job with a cast time is, even RDM is at the mercy of LoSing. I'll give RDM that the initial cast itself from jolt/ver spells is harder to avoid since it casts faster, but their damage is low. Unless someone is REALLY that close to death the "guaranteed poke" you get is not worth much.

Also you don't have to CC any job perfectly to stop their burst. You just have to cc them at any point when they're doing it. RDM jumps in, gets stunned either during the first or second part of their combo for example, that gives time for a heal on the target, now that kill is gone. Of course most jobs are susceptible to this, right? But proper melee like take MNK for instance, have one GCD + 2 off GCD burst. 1250 gcd + 2000 off gcd + 2500 off GCD. 5750 potency BEFORE buffs (greased lightning and riddle of fire) in one GCD.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

All these factors need to be considered before crying wolf that Red Mage needs further buffs. Its damage is very flexible and it has deceptively powerful burst, on top of the fact that it is highly mobile. Yes, as a necessity, but that makes it all the more difficult for enemies to keep track of. I'd say if anything it could use a bit more utility in its kit, though an AoE Weight on global cooldown that deals more than its base cast to the first target makes it difficult to chose what other utility to go for.

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It's damage during melee range is okay, towards the end of it when the actual burst happens. It's damage outside of that is still abysmal though. There's hardly any flexibility either, the job is designed to build resource from range and then blow their load in melee, no ifs ands or butts. It's this half-ass hybrid that can't do either thing right. Less sustain and burst in range, less burst in melee than proper melee. There is absolutely NOTHING RDM can do better than other jobs, but it can do a bunch of things in a mediocre manner.

I wouldnt agree its horrendous in frontline. I can agree about bumping up our hp a bit but that's about in. In group situations Im doing pretty good, and they are even quite good in 1v1 too except vs Sam and Drk (and healers of course). Maybe a buff to the melee hits but a nerf to verflare/verholy would be a good change though.

I'm enjoying rdm in 8s just need to time attacks right. But I see when I'm in the oh sh.. when I jump in at the wrong time and get focused. haven't done many 4s with it though so I can't really see how it plays out there.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Considering how completely unrelated the 2 are, a more accurate statement would be "Being OP in PvE is no reason or excuse for it to be bad in PvP."

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And yet there is absolutely nothing "bad" about RDM so you point is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I frequently see RDMs with Battle High/Battle Fever so they're obviously capable of good damage/kills.

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The only reason why your seeing so many Red Mages with battle high is because they are the gods of kill stealing. Red Mage in pvp is a very bad job compared to the other two Magic Ranged DPS.
Just because a job is capable at getting battle high/battle fever doesn't mean they are capable at good damage/kills, half the time it just means they are just do some sort of Ranged attack damage to targets that are already near death in frontline.

RDM just doesn't have the damage Potential and pressure that the other Magic DPS jobs have, not even remotely close.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

And yet there is absolutely nothing "bad" about RDM so you point is irrelevant.

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1. Red Mage has just 10k HP and part of your burst rotation requires you to go into melee range of your target.
2. Most of the time due to poor netcode and lag you need to also take Bolt in order to even catch a moving target to do sword combos on them.
3. The other two Magic DPS jobs can do much higher numbers than Red Mage and are much more safe to use due to being able to attack from a distance rather than needing to get close to enemies.
4. Red Mage burst is very slow between Sword Combos and there is a bad delay for Verholy/Verflare which can be prevented much easier by healers than say a Summoner bursting.
5. Flunge costs way too much, the heavy is just 3 seconds, and its not Off GCD making it pretty worthless in most situations.

like the OP said the best way to use red mage is to do the below combo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY4BCBbG4j8

(note I did not use Monomachy in the combo the numbers are actually about 10% higher for dmg)

This is the fastest combo you can do as a Red Mage, Building your 1-2 on something else (healer or tank?) then moving to your actual target to do the rotation in the video.
Sadly this dmg pales in comparison to Black mage and Summoner.