From one tank to other tanks..STR Gear is not a thing anymore..Get used to it now!

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Originally Posted by Annah

when a tank buster brings them down to 5% health rather than 45% health no amount of calculations will tell me STR is better.

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If they brought so much STR gear a tank buster took them to 5% then they sacrificed a dangerously large about of VIT and I would slap them myself if I were present <.<

Responsible STR usage means knowing the content you are dealing with and your healer's capabilities and tweaking accordingly. I would not sanction replacing your entire right side with STR jewellery outside of very specific scenarios; refer to my post on page 1 of the thread; VIT/STR is a balance to be struck; too much VIT and you're wasting the healer's time by making them heal you more. Too much STR, and you are likely to make the healer's hair go grey before the dungeon is out... if you survive at all :p

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Everyone want's to be everything man. Tanks want to DPS, Healers want to DPS, DPS want to know what is going on.

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We're starting to come full circle, DPS (specifically RDM) wants to heal, i.e. designated raiser (to be fair, probably the right call in some situations due to ease of dualcast instaraise).

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Originally Posted by Hioki

True story. STR Tanking is a thing again. It's dumb, but it's a thing again until SE provides a fix. Until then, make proper use of CD's and swap pieces as necessary if your df healer is undergeared/skilled.

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even with the best geared healer, not much you can do when an Omega "boss" pops a tank buster and it one shots the tank because they're sporting STR 270 gear. (yup, i've seen this happen too. Not as much, thank God, but I have seen it).

Honestly, it feels like some tanks "found a way to get around the system with STR" but in actuality it makes them poorer tanks when they think it makes them better tanks. I mean I guess it makes sense, they're in a dungeon doing their thing...but they don't see the healer in the background spamming heals like it's going out of style just to keep them alive.

I would rather STR fuel damage (which in turn fuels enmity), and let VIT act as HP pool and maybe something else like mitigation or resource recovery. Make STR and VIT both useful so you have to balance good vs good and not good vs mediocre.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

If they brought so much STR gear a tank buster took them to 5% then they sacrificed a dangerously large about of VIT and I would slap them myself if I were present <.<

Responsible STR usage means knowing the content you are dealing with and your healer's capabilities and tweaking accordingly. I would not sanction replacing your entire right side with STR jewellery outside of very specific scenarios; refer to my post on page 1 of the thread; VIT/STR is a balance to be struck; too much VIT and you're wasting the healer's time by making them heal you more. Too much STR, and you are likely to make the healer's hair go grey before the dungeon is out... if you survive at all :p

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Wait.. are we going to pretend that in a random PUG environment all (or even most) tanks micromanage their STR accessories to competently balance out the risks? All the more amazing when they don't even know the capabilities of the crew they've been randomly paired with.

Because I'm having a difficult time believing that. My experience in PUGs is that most tanks don't even want to tank.

The problem with the STR argument is that on paper it sounds reasonable. And in static groups it even works in practice. But static groups aren't complaining about their STR-wearing tanks.. the players who have to deal with them in PUG environments are.

It's entirely understandable to me why a team of random people would prefer a tank who doesn't almost die with every serious hit (versus one who does). The extra minute or so the strength tank is shaving off the ~20 minute dungeon run is not worth the constant heart attacks. And if even a single wipe happens, then it really wasn't worth it at all.

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Originally Posted by Annah

Honestly, it feels like some tanks "found a way to get around the system with STR" but in actuality it makes them poorer tanks when they think it makes them better tanks. I mean I guess it makes sense, they're in a dungeon doing their thing...but they don't see the healer in the background spamming heals like it's going out of style just to keep them alive.

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Death and Taxes syndrome, it happens in every game. Some group of experienced players find a 'better' way of doing things (often the difference is just a handful of percent in performance), that require a higher skill floor to execute, players read 'This way is better' and read into it as 'If you're NOT doing it this way, you are trash tier'. Suddenly every sprout and his minion is trying to jump into the deep end and making a huge mess of it.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Wait.. are we going to pretend that in a random PUG environment all (or even most) tanks micromanage their STR accessories to competently balance out the risks? All the more amazing when they don't even know the capabilities of the crew they've been randomly paired with.

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I'm saying that if someone is going to start messing with STR/VIT trade-offs, they'd better know what the hell they're doing and do it right. See my above comment.

My post on the front page and discussion of the topic is written on the basis that people know what they are doing. If Johnny Rando throws on a full set of STR jewellery and plows his face into Susano EX's sword that ain't on me :p - Because my advice was to balance your stats. If in doubt, err on the side of caution and lean towards VIT, not STR; failsafe, not faildangerous

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

How many more signs do you need to move on? I get it....you hate the changes....but alot of us don't. We are tanks, not dps, not heals, TANKS! Our job is to hold aggro and do a baseline amount of damage and to allow our healers the chance to DPS if they choose to by allowing them to heal us less often so they can DPS!

Why egg the system when you know its going to happen.....get use to it now, since this is how it is and it is going to be until SE changes it again(which I sincerely doubt would happen before 5.0!)

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From here:

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The way the devs have designed the game up to this point is the reason why DPS is such a big thing for multiple reason.
First of all, all roles have such high damage potential that even healers and tanks are literally support-DPS or hybrids in other MMOs which is why I tell everyone who asks that every roll in this game is a hybrid roll. "Tanks" are dps that hold hate; "Healers" are dps that have to keep everyone alive; "DPS" are dps that have to handle the raid mechanics. Treat it like that and everything falls in pretty naturally for almost all content (speedrunners and statics doing weird comps being some of the only exceptions).

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Why do it? Because optimizing DPS is how players have fun, plus DPS is a form of mitigation because you don't have to take as many tankbusters. It's a form of support. Besides most tanks who know what they're doing are probably running 2 STR 3 VIT.

Honestly, I have been against the design of tanking in FFXIV from since when I started in late February. See my comment reply. It's not just that I dislike the changes. I have been opposed to the design of the system in the first place. You're lucky that SE has designed tanking the way it is, because in other MMOs you'd have to optimize DPS to hold aggro.

well, i've noticed tanks who wear tank gear, we clear the dungeons much faster versus a tank who thinks they're a DPS. (because a white mage who heals and dps is much faster than a glass cannon tank who hits a little bit harder with a white mage spamming heals like mad)

So the theory that DPS tanks clear the dungeons faster is absolutely false.

I can do it without vit accessory to me the str accessory increased my dps by 700 and noting hit even remotely hard to the point I need the extra hp on any boss fight

As for vit user your extra hp is useless and a burden to the party as you are a dps lost and a dead weight

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Originally Posted by Annah

well, i've noticed tanks who wear tank gear, we clear the dungeons much faster versus a tank who thinks they're a DPS. (because a white mage who heals and dps is much faster than a glass cannon tank who hits a little bit harder with a white mage spamming heals like mad)

So the theory that DPS tanks clear the dungeons faster is absolutely false.

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Well, obviously you need to take into consideration whether what you're doing is going to put extra burden on your healer. Having played WHM this expansion, I do agree Cure II spam does lower my DPS by quite a bit. I'd say tank DPS can help, as long as it doesn't force the healer to use more GCDs. Although pug tanks are probably not micromanaging their accessories. I think there are too many players who try to follow the meta without understanding why it works.

I think this is part of the reason why they took Bloodbath away from tanks. A Warrior could go into Deliverance with Bloodbath, Berserk and Vengeance up and spam Overpower and use Decimate twice, and he wouldn't need heals for like 15s or so. God, I miss Bloodbath :(