Beast Gauge Cost: Numbers

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Originally Posted by Eir_Z

FC -> FC -> Infuriate -> FC -> FC -> FC -> FC.

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Am i the only one to think that's not a good design?
3 FC, in heavenward was feeling great but 6 FC is just wrong.

I would rather have a JA that works like BRD or NIN, that triple/double the next weapon skill for a balanced beast gauge cost instead of spending 6 whole GCD doing the same move (FC).
Isn't that like 12-18 seconds ?
Ton of things can happen in that timespan.

Another direct benefit from this, you start to build your gauge sooner.

So, something tankstuff said got me curious. Namely, this:

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Originally Posted by Tankstuff

if im on war and have to swap i lose half my gauge, or dumping gauge messes heavily with your berserk ir timings, etc.

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I'm under the impression that you generally shouldn't use Berserk / IR outside of having 100 gauge. Perhaps I'm wrong about that? If dumping gauge or swapping stances messes with your timings enough that you have to delay IR / Berserk, is there a rough idea out there of how much of a cost that has?

It seems like it would have an effect beyond the "Less than 408" calculated, especially if it happens multiple times over the course of an encounter.

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Originally Posted by Tankstuff

...paladin should be able to switch from shield to sword oath free of cost like drk does, and war should only lose a flat 20 gauge.

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I honestly think all three are fine right now, and I play all three as well. I understand that for WAR in particular, it has made it a lot more difficult on average players, but at the end of the day this most all amounts to how much DPS each can output while doing their tank duties. With this in mind, I find it easier to do more DPS as a WAR than DRK even with mistakes due to just how much more DPS they can pump out in Deliverance, so it balances out. PLD is in a place where that job is really easy, and it needs no further help. The only cost to their DPS is if they want to help out more with Clemency and Passage of Arms.

Separate Unchained and Inner Release, and you should see the average players start to come back up in terms of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

It seems like it would have an effect beyond the "Less than 408" calculated, especially if it happens multiple times over the course of an encounter.

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No math is going to be a 100% perfect reflection of how it plays out in game, there are too many variables. There are ideals, and then there's reality. If enough tragedy happens in a fight to throw your IR/Berserk timing off several times - your IR/Berserk window being executed perfectly probably wasn't going to save that run to begin with lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

No math is going to be a 100% perfect reflection of how it plays out in game, there are too many variables. There are ideals, and then there's reality. If enough tragedy happens in a fight to throw your IR/Berserk timing off several times - your IR/Berserk window being executed perfectly probably wasn't going to save that run to begin with lol

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Agreed. I was mostly curious if anyone had actually tried to figure it out.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

Agreed. I was mostly curious if anyone had actually tried to figure it out.

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I vaguely recall a post mentioning something along those lines, but I think it's buried in one of the other threads, not it's own topic.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

Agreed. I was mostly curious if anyone had actually tried to figure it out.

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I'm not sure how you would approach that problem. Wouldn't that vary depending on how long the fight goes?

Best way to look at it IMO is you can't use IR in Defiance so having to delay it is actually part of the tank stance penalty. Look at it this way, if you were in Defiance for one full rotation you would lose an entire IR, being in Defiance for part of a rotation it gets delayed a fraction of the time.

If tank stance DPS is reasonably balanced (which I have no idea about tbh) then it's not a problem. If losing IR makes WAR particularly weak in tank stance then it is.

Edit: Also, I overestimated the "worst case" number in my second post making the same mistake I spent the first part talking about. Derp, WAR has it even better than I thought.

IR is on a 2 min CD with Unchained, so in Susano or Lakshmi you're only using it at most, 3 times. Infuriate is a 60s CD, so it'll be easier to adapt to changing conditions in a fight.

Realistically, you're only going to get maybe two uses of IR if your group is doing really well. But, there's nothing wrong with comparing potency chains. A bit earlier I said Upheaval is really only worthwhile to squeeze an extra hit in if mechanics are going to interrupt you. I don't see anything wrong with that either. If I have to choose between an FC and Upheaval, I'll use the FC.

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Originally Posted by Eir_Z

If I have to choose between an FC and Upheaval、I'll use the FC.

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That makes no sense. If you have 50 gauge and Upheaval is off cooldown you can either get 500 potency using FC, or you can get 300 potency from Upheaval, 100 potency from Onslaught, and 150 potency from a Heavy Swing. You'll get a minimum of 50 more potency in 1 GCD and still have 10 extra gauge left over; you should always prioritize Upheaval over Fell Cleave.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

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thats correct except on your opener, you put infuriate berserk and ir on cd pretty much asap, I can write out my opener if you really want. Its hard to articulate my thoughts into a way thats easily understandable and theres a million what if scenarios but ive done primal farming on all 3 tanks extensively just for testing rotations and such and when shit hits the fan it ruins my parse on war far more than pld and drk. We havent even taken into account actual fight mechanics. You want your 100 bg to line up perfectly with your third berserk and 2nd ir coming off cd, and you want to put them on cd asap obviously to optimize dps. say u do this and he stuns you, well gg you just lost your biggest burst phase, same with any fight transition.

This can happen to drk during bw delirium or pld during requiscat but not nearly as punishing to their overall dps as it is to war. In tank stance, pld still has access to fof and requiscat spirit spam although the damage is gimped, and darks still get full potency BS and extra ss mana for more da. War has..upheaval, and its only at maximum effectiveness if your hp is topped off.Then on top of that, war has to spend 50 guage for ib(this is the shit hits the fan scenario when you are in tank stance)..darks use mana for tbn which is immediately refunded to them with a full power BS in or out of grit, which is now mana efficient due to the 20 potency buff so you dont lose anything for it.

Plds gain oath gauge spamming holy spirit in shield oath which lets them spam sheltron for more mana for more holy spirits etc. I despise stance dancing on war and thank god we have the most cds because id rather die in deliverance than swap stances lol