Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

From the most basic and fundamental game design standpoint, an objective analysis of this game's trinity system STRONGLY implies that all jobs are actually at their core framework, damage dealers. The only differences between DPS, healers, and tanks is where the added responsibility lies:

DPS:
-deal damage with a complicated rotation
-master the complex rotation to maximize damage

Healers
-deal damage with a simple rotation
-keep everyone alive

Tanks
-deal damage with a simple rotation
-hold aggro and mitigate damage

DPS are pure damage dealers that have a more complex rotation as an added role mechanic.
Healers are hybrid damage dealers that have a simpler rotation to accomodate their healing duties.
Tanks are hybrid damage dealers that have a simpler rotation to accomodate their tanking duties.

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Originally Posted by Spartan926

I'm in agreement with the main point of this thread. There's no reason to try to out DPS anyone as a tank. If you're MT your first job is to be #1 on the aggro bar, if you're OT your first job should be to be #2 on the aggro bar in case something happens, your second job is to watch for and pick up ads as necessary. Everything other than that is secondary.

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Nobody is aiming to out-DPS DPS jobs. We're aiming to maximize our potential damage, with is around 1/2 to 2/3rds of what DPS are capable of, and generally it has always been balanced at about that ratio, so tanks are accustomed to it and we don't want it to go any lower than that. Not sure what about that concept is hard to empathize with.

Here's my thoughts on this. Yeah, when I'm maintank I stay in tank stance, but I also balance which combo I use based on whether I need a huge amount of enmity, am good on enmity, or my DoT combo needs refreshing. Basically I feel that if you're just spamming one combo, I'd say learn your job better, but on the other hand, DPS is your third priority, I don't feel you should be kitting yourself out for damage and stance swapping to stay just on the edge of things. Also, I say third priority because in addition to keeping hate, your second job is making sure the hits you take require less healing to take care of through cooldown management, aoe dodging and at least in my case that's the main reason I stay in tank stance when I MT.

That said though when I'm OT I consider myself a gimp DPS and fight accordingly until something comes up where the second tank is needed.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Castrate the tank community and enforce poor play/an outdated playstyle/an unrewarding design that only appeals to an even minor minority in the already small tank population.
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This.

It\\'s not enough to be all moralistic about tanking and expect everyone to just accept a dull, unrewarding play style. There\\'s a shortage of tanks, it needs to be solved by making tanking fun.

You can do that by introducing new mechanics for tanks that affect the game (say, utility) or by letting good tanks do good DPS.

The trouble is that, on the one hand, SE want to lower the skill floor of tanking so that casual players aren\\'t destroyed in dungeons, but they\\'ve also reduced the skill ceiling by giving us very little to focus on other than holding hate. They just need to find a way to give good tanks ways to speed up, or make more interesting, fights in skillful ways.

I'm going to be that guy and quote myself:

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Saying healers and tanks shouldn't DPS is usually based off of pre-existing experience and/or expectations from other MMOs.

Coming to THIS game and saying healers and tanks shouldn't DPS is like coming to Sonic from Mario and saying Sonic shouldn't go fast because Mario didn't go fast.

._.

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Originally Posted by Spartan926

I'm in agreement with the main point of this thread. There's no reason to try to out DPS anyone as a tank. If you're MT your first job is to be #1 on the aggro bar, if you're OT your first job should be to be #2 on the aggro bar in case something happens, your second job is to watch for and pick up ads as necessary. Everything other than that is secondary.

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You still have the same responsability as any party member: optimizing your skill usage.
Using Rage of Halone when you already have a clear enmity lead instead of Goring Blade/Royal Authority isn't optimal. It's a failure. Do it too often and people will be in their right to call you on that, and that you're doing a bad job, maybe not as a tank per se, but as a party member.

The tank #1 priority is the same as everyone else: successfully finishing the duty while trying to reduce the chances of failure as much as possible.
By not trying to optimize your DPS as a Tank (or healer, or DPS job), you are reducing the chances of success. Which means that you don't fulfill your #1 priority as a party member.

So, in short, trying to optimize your DPS output as a Tank is definitly in your top priorities. It's not "optional" (as some princess healers like to say).

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That being said, there's a difference in striving for optimization, and asking the game developers to flat out give more attack power to tanks. The former is expected, the latter is silly*.


(*)Excluding balance discussions, obviously.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I'm going to be that guy and quote myself:

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I like this logic. However what if the Sonic game you went to was a new sonic game that sega designed so that Sonic was more like Mario? Of course you'd say "then its not the Sonic that I came to love playing". You're now left with either not playing it or learning to love the new game. And what if others already love this new sonic game as they like the mario mechanics while others have decided they'd just rather drop the new sonic altogether. Right now this is how SE is operating with SB changes. Its a risk for them but hey they made the choice. So naturally there are people who don't like it and there are those who like it. If SE wants to change the 1/2-2/3 damage of dps tank its a risk they take. If others like this change let them just as you guys have already voiced your desires regarding tank dps

So uh...this got out of hand fast huh? xD

@OP
But that's how FFXIV works?

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/15#b...l&spec=Paladin

From here:

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The way the devs have designed the game up to this point is the reason why DPS is such a big thing for multiple reason.
First of all, all roles have such high damage potential that even healers and tanks are literally support-DPS or hybrids in other MMOs which is why I tell everyone who asks that every roll in this game is a hybrid roll. "Tanks" are dps that hold hate; "Healers" are dps that have to keep everyone alive; "DPS" are dps that have to handle the raid mechanics. Treat it like that and everything falls in pretty naturally for almost all content (speedrunners and statics doing weird comps being some of the only exceptions).

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Originally Posted by Fyce

That being said, there's a difference in striving for optimization, and asking the game developers to flat out give more attack power to tanks. The former is expected, the latter is silly*.

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The biggest problem with that is that with the changes to tank damage and the way accessories work we'll eventually reach a point where tank damage is so low when compared to DPS that the run won't be any shorter even if the tank tries to optimise DPS, if you can't contribute in a meaningful way, why try to contribute at all? Might as well just sit in tank stance and do your 1-2-3 combo like a good boy.

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Originally Posted by Splitinfinity

I like this logic. However what if the Sonic game you went to was a new sonic game that sega designed so that Sonic was more like Mario? Of course you'd say "then its not the Sonic that I came to love playing". You're now left with either not playing it or learning to love the new game. And what if others already love this new sonic game as they like the mario mechanics while others have decided they'd just rather drop the new sonic altogether. Right now this is how SE is operating with SB changes. Its a risk for them but hey they made the choice. So naturally there are people who don't like it and there are those who like it. If SE wants to change the 1/2-2/3 damage of dps tank its a risk they take. If others like this change let them just as you guys have already voiced your desires regarding tank dps

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I understand where you're coming from, but the fact is that it comes down to a choice vs. an imposed limitation. Currently we have a game where tanks can deal relatively high damage if they so choose, or not. By lowering the tank DPS ceiling and leaving the tank DPS floor where it is, you actually rob players that are working hard to optimize their performance of the fun and satisfaction of doing so. Meanwhile, us wanting to continue to be able to have a relatively high DPS ceiling in no way impacts how a DPS-shy tank must play - they still get to make that choice. Sure, they might get told that they're playing suboptimally, and they are, but they still have that choice.

Basically, one segment of the population wants choice to remain for both, and one segment wants to take that choice away from the other, making it so they can't perform at a higher level even if they wanted to. Its fascist game design.