We NEED Sustain back-SMN

Sustain or ALL pets gets healed by Physick 10 times higher!! >_> Tiny 600 Heals dont do anything if max HP on pets is 15-30k!

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

I have a bunch of complaints about the new SMN, but I literally have 0 issues with losing sustain. I can see if you're soloing sure, but in any raid scenario I use it extremely rarely. How are you guys killing your pets so often? And even in soloing I just tank the mob myself and burst the enemy down like any other caster/ranged dps would do.

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This.

The thing I'm wondering the most: Since 3.0 Titan egi never had a chance to keep hate against the Summoner itself. Who "lost" emnity to his pet was just a terrible summoner.

Now? Even more so, especially if they send their pet away to summon bahamut. Because then your tank is gone. *poof*
Haha, Titan tanking and because they want him to tank they don't call bahamut? Lol, scrubs.

And even with pets dying SMN ist still the most viable class for soloing content above your level. Yes SMN is not the best times thousand anymore, but still the best.
Also, did people look at the chocobo's new power? Because that is the way to go if you want a tank or healer when soloing (a chocobo cure now crits for 10k+).

To be honest, I quite understand why SMN should not have it. Especially if you have your Titan in the open world, being capable of tanking elite marks, or in dungeons where he could tank some bosses even without a healer in the party, as it used to be in HW.

SMN is a dps role, we should not be a capable Tank, Healer and DPS simultaneously against enemies that other dps jobs would not even dream about soloing. The Titan can already endure for a long time in fights against some stronger enemies, but he should not be the unkillable tank with his health always at 100%, he needs to eventually die in these situations.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Now? Even more so, especially if they send their pet away to summon bahamut. Because then your tank is gone. *poof*
Haha, Titan tanking and because they want him to tank they don't call bahamut? Lol, scrubs.

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Titan is not a tank. I just finished an instance with him and he couldn't hold aggro against one of the random nameless NPCs attacking the same mob. He's a tank. He's supposed to be a freaking tank. What do tanks do? They generate and maintain emnity. We do a lot of damage and a tanking pet should have the skills and abilities to deal with that. Nearly every other MMO with a pet class (that has a tanking pet) has such skills to keep the emnity on the tanking pet. WoW, for example, has two specific attacks the pet uses to gain aggro as well as two or three other skills to allow the player to shift emnity onto the pet. FFXIV doesn't. I shouldn't have to hold back because Titan can't hold emnity against a freakin' random NPC that's doing shit-all damage. There is literally NO reason to use this pet. It's just "lulz! Do much less dmg if you want Titan-egi to tank for you!" design. And the cherry is that they take sustain away so now we don't really even have the option to do less damage because he's a paper tissue.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Also, did people look at the chocobo's new power? Because that is the way to go if you want a tank or healer when soloing (a chocobo cure now crits for 10k+).

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Which would be awesome if they healed the egi's but they don't.

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Originally Posted by Alisi

Which would be awesome if they healed the egi's but they don't.

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But they heal you making you able to beat any fight intended to be beaten by a single dps job.

MNK has Fists of Earth given them damage reduction (making them tankier) and Bloodbath/2nd Wind, why aren't they allowed to complain that they can't solo any hunt or fate? SMNs have to get of their high horse, esp. since they are one of the strongest dps classes anyway.

You want to be able to also tank almost any boss and faze or hunt and be able to sustain your tank. K, if you accept a 50% loss in damage in exchange to keep things fair and bring you in line with healers and tanks dps.

As said, i don't get that anyway. Titan is useless since 2015.

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Originally Posted by LordPhantomhive

some nice aoe spam in Susano ex was killing garuda for me yesterday, then I had to resummon her while trying to cross line to dodge the lightning aoe again. I mean sure there were some party wide mistakes that caused more aoe on her, but it >can< happen.

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What I meant by asking my question was more like...

Assume the SMN places the pet competently.
Assume the party is mechanicsing.
Assume the healers are using AoE heals at an appropriate frequency.

Given these three assumptions, does the pet survive?

If everyone's doing everything right, and the pet dies, then there's a problem. When placed properly, we should be able to maintain an expectation of pet survival just from AoE healing, because healers don't see egis on the party list, and shouldn't be expected to devote single-target heals to them.

Were a situation to be found in a dungeon where the party could do everything right, and the pet would still die, then pet adjustments should receive some elevated priority.

EX primals, though. They are about being intimately familiar with the fight. In the same way that a BLM needs to know the mechanics well enough to know how to fit a rotation into the movement demands of the fight, a SMN should know the mechanics well enough to know where and when to place a pet, and in both cases the party as a whole need to mechanics appropriately so as not to throw a wrench in anybody's plans.


So, revision to earlier question,
Assuming the pet is placed well, the party is handling mechanics properly, and the healers are using their AoE tools, what dungeons do so much damage that pets are dying?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

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MNKs would certainly have a right to complain if those two defense CDs only worked 10% of the time. SMNs don't have any defensive CDs because of Titan-Egi and we wear lesser armor. That's how you keep things fair. Our egi's are a functional part of the class. Our DPS is balanced around them. To say that SMNs need to "get off their high horse" because one of their egi's is broken is ludicrous. Oh yes, listen to those whiners. They want the core function of their job to work. Silly SMNs. It's like SMNs think they're a pet class or something...

And in what universe did Titan suddenly start being a DPS king? Do you see anyone ever using Titan in dungeons or raids? Do they contribute to the rocking SMN DPS? (Because, surely, if a shitty nameless NPC DPS can steal emnity from Titan-egi then tanks would have no problem with them.)

Yeah uh, there's no reason for me to lose my Titan egi to a simple three-mob fight my Summoner overgears and overlevels. That's just... no.

Also I can maybe see why they don't want Physick to scale off Int (edging into Healer territory) but the healing superstar of DPS that is Red Mage blows that argument completely out of the water. So, yeah. Gimme at least 50% of what my Scholar is capable of on a Physick or why should I even have it at all? What are these, heals for ants?

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

Also I can maybe see why they don't want Physick to scale off Int (edging into Healer territory) but the healing superstar of DPS that is Red Mage blows that argument completely out of the water. So, yeah. Gimme at least 50% of what my Scholar is capable of on a Physick or why should I even have it at all? What are these, heals for ants?

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The difference here is that it's part of the Red Mage design, while you only have Physick because they just don't remove it from you while you start as an Arcanist (and I guess they still want people who want to level Arcanist for Scholar to still have early access to a healing spell, but I agree it's kind of a waste for a skill spot, then). You are a unique case in this game, the only class having 2 jobs after (and with different roles). This is why they can just design "well it won't be part of the SMN design as we just want it to be for the Scholar". I guess Physick is still useful for the Palace of the Dead when someone has the mimic debuff or when the heals are block and there is no healer in the party. And also in very early game of course.

When I watch this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_oLCPHqKR8
I guess we actually can see Titan-egi being made to tank monsters no one hit (but healers still generate enmity). Here they are killing adds at start while Titan-egi tanks the main boss. And he seems to create enough enmity to don't have its enmity overtaken by the healers. And as the Titan-egi will be kinda on the side, healers shouldn't have any problem to check his life as he won't have his life bar overlapping with the players ones.

So while others are beating adds, Titan is generating more and more enmity, building enough of it to give tanks time to build aggro while dps classes can already start switching target and hit the boss (and better Titan than the others as I guess he is overall more resistant). Mage and healer jobs now all have access to Lucid dreaming halving their current enmity (and Diversion for the mages, the skill reducing by 20% the enmity they will generate for 15sec), so they never should be high in enmity anyway except to show off (or to compare to others to know if they do well when learning the class).

I am wondering how Shirk works for the tanks (if it's a gift of 25% of all enmity he generated on all the still alive enemies to an ally). But if it's the case, he can then use Shirk on the Titan-egi a bit before killing the adds he is tanking to give him plenty of enmity to give him even more time. And when the Titan-egi dies or lose enmity, you can use Swiftcast to summon the dps summon you want and need for the rest of the battle.

So yes, I believe you need more gameplay from the others, and as I like the advertisement for FFXIV called "Memories" where we see friends playing together to succeed together (here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI06jFY6CLc) , and seeing how WAR and SMN are way less good at solo everything, I guess they want everyone to stop being that good in solo and to count more on the others to get synergy.

Edit : When thinking about it, they could make a trait which would actually change Physick as many other skills are changed by traits. They could make it like a Physick healing as little HP (to don't change this part) but providing to a summoned ally only a healing buff of 20% for exemple (so they still need help from the healer but would survive better). I don't say it's the right idea, but I just mean they could make a trait to change Physick to fit better the Summoner side without changing it into a healer. They could also make it a skill providing a different effect according to the summon we are targeting.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

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Egi's are integral parts of what a summoner is. It's in the name, even. And you can't actually queue as a healer until you're a sch. Oh, you'll go back and be an arcanist before then if you land in a lower level group, but you can't actually queue to heal so the argument is kind of weak. Also, that video is over 3 years old. It's not current content or build. It was done either right before or right after HW was released, when people were way over geared for the content and when there was sustain.

The issue at hand is completely different now. Titan-Egi as it is today could neither keep aggro, gain aggro, maintain aggro, or stay alive if it managed to somehow get it. And people finding these old videos and using them as proofs of how the egi is doing without having any experience is a big problem too. They see it at a time when Titan had sustain and dedicated healers, as well as an actual tank with over geared people, and they think 'welp, SMNs are tots OP.'

What SE needs to do is shit or get off the pot. Either they decide to give us functioning tanks or take it away and they give us defensive CDs. We have none because of Titan-egi but Titan-egi doesn't work. It's not hard to balance. Other games do it with ease. WoW, for example; you can't take a tank pet into a dungeon or raid not only because of the lesser damage but because that pet is an actual TANK. It has tanking abilities. Not to the level of player tanks but it has taunts and such. It will rip aggro from a tank immediately. There's none of this 'ramping up emnity' BS. The classes themselves have defensive CDs. Not as much as the melee DPS but they're there. So how does WoW keep the pet classes from being OP? They give the CDs very long cooldowns (5 minutes) and you can't do damage while under the effects. You are given emnity controls to deal with emnity issues. Not a blanket 'lower emnity' but rather one that either dumps all emnity at once or one where you can shift emnity onto someone or something else (ideally, either the actual tank or your pet.) You are given heals but they all have CDs too. If you're a Warlock, you heal your pets by giving them you HP and it's channeled.

The pet classes in WoW aren't overpowered by a long shot. Indeed, for the past year, the spec of hunter that sacrifices the pet for a damage buff does better in raids and dungeons. You can work with the pet. You are given tools to deal with things. God forbid SE makes their pets be anything more than set-it and forget-it DPS generators.