Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.

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it doesn't exclude anyone though. there's a practice option in the raid finder which you should use if you wantto practice.... just because that option is going to put you with people who also want to practice and not with people who will just carry you does not mean you are excluded in any way....

I got my first clears for Sophia zurvan and even nidhogg using the raid finders practice options,,, there is no way I was excluded from the content.

the only thing I was excluded from was farm parties. but as I hadn't cleared the fight I was in no way ready to farm it....

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.

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Yes, because the content still requires you to do mechanics and know the fight - we're not that overgeared yet. And because some people still want to farm that content to get their birds or weapons or whatever. Again: The progression of newbies shouldnt be more important then the progression of anyone else. The feature is in place to seperate those who want fast, quick kills and those who are okay with learning and slow progression (or need to learn the fight and should therefore be okay with learning)
That "bone" you're throwing there - thats "my" time. (not actually mine, but you get the idea, I hope)

The most recent of these was released 7 months ago. The oldest was released in November 2015. We're going to be able to unsync this content in 2 months. There's no reason to put these back into Raid Finder. Anyone who was serious about tackling this content and getting their clears has had ample time to do so.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

it doesn't exclude anyone though.

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Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Again: The progression of newbies shouldnt be more important then the progression of anyone else.

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Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion..

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they might not be able to join a farm party which is clearly beyond there capabilities if they haven't cleared the content yet...

but it doenst exclude them from the content. they can still join practice parties or even parties seeking completion both of which would be better suited to that palyer than a farm party..

anyone expecting to join a farm party and get a clear instead of joining a clear party or a learning party basically just wants to get carried.. its this amentality that has lead to the whole "no bonus" culture, because players just aren't honest and don't want to join parties that actually fit there abilities and instead expect carries..

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Having to struggle with bad parties to get a clear is better than not even being allowed to try, is it not?

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I'm not sure I agree with this statement, personally.

In some sense, you're correct; if you remove emotions from the equation, struggling with a bad party provides a hands-on chance to learn mechanics, thereby improving your ability to clear the fight down the road. Over time, you'll improve enough to the point where you can get a win.

That said, emotions can't be removed from the equation. Random groups are composed of radically different players. Some want to learn, some don't. Some want to teach, some don't. When you throw a mixed group of these personalities at a fight, it often becomes stressful for reasons entirely apart from gameplay. People will quit, people will yell, people will be passive-aggressive, people will continue getting hit by the same damned move, frustrating everyone else. I've been through groups like this (I don't like to be the first to leave), and they SUCK. They make for a far more miserable experience than simply not bothering with the fight in the first place, to me at least.

It's for this reason that I support the Raid Finder, or any tool that enables some amount of segregation amongst the player base. Yes, there are downsides, but in my mind, they're necessary. And I say this as precisely the type of player this discrimination most harms (skilled, well-researched, but recently returned from a long break).

After all, at the end of the day, automated systems like the Duty Finder are around solely to speed up the previously-manual process of building a group, something featured in most every MMO. Manual control allowed people to discriminate in all sorts of ways if desired. New players still found opportunities and, what's more, the opportunities they found were much more likely to be accommodating. That beats joining a group that doesn't want you around any day of the week, in my opinion.

He isn't talking about farm parties or clear parties in the party finder. He is talking about the ability within the raid finder to only allow those that have cleared. Just FYI.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Were you doing content you had previously completed? Based on the various Raid Finder threads, it seems that its primary use was to discriminate against people who haven't yet cleared the content.

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It wasn't discrimatory. It was allowing the groups that wanted to farm be able to farm without having people who are looking for easy clears/carries to join in the group. I'm all for helping people clear, but it agitates me to see people sneak into a farm party and not even have a clear for the content. Especially when the PF description says "No Bonus." We're there to farm it, not help an individual understand the fight and clear it. The groups where we have tried to help the bonus person never resulted in a clear most of the time anyways, so all that time was just wasted. And it's extremely frustrating when all you want to do is farm some days.

I can't tell you how many PFs I ended up in where we couldn't queue into an Extreme because someone had a bonus and was trying to sneak in. Worst yet is that they didn't speak up when people asked "Who hasn't cleared? We'll help you, but we need to know who you are and how far you've gotten in the fight." If people want to learn content, make a PF for a LEARNING PARTY; I see them quite frequently when I'm browsing PF for things to do. I've joined a bunch of them just to help. Make a learning/clear party. Don't try to sneak your way into a farm; you'll just end up on people's blacklists.

It took me longer than it should have to get Thordan's and Sephirot's birds. Because so many people were joining farms without a clear, and expecting the rest of us to carry them. Even worse was some lied that they had cleared the fight on an alt. But you knew they were lying the minute you got in the duty because they died to just about everything.

Even after I have cleared, I still stick to learning groups for enough runs to understand the fight more. Because I sure as heck do not want to be carried by other players. Nidhogg Ex for example: I got my bird on my clear, and only cleared it one more time after that. I don't know at least 50% of the fight, or understand it at a level that is acceptable to me. I'm not going to join a farm and burden those who want loot and quick kills with my own inexperience. Sephirot Ex: never cleared as a healer before, always ran on either tank or bard. So I would look for more of a learning/clear to practice healing it rather than waltz into a farm party and be uncertain. Especially as a healer. (I did learn a bit more about healing SephEx, enough now to comfortably join farms.)

People in this thread keep saying "Make a PF for farm parties." Well, it goes both ways. Make a PF for learning parties. It's not like it's that hard. And you'll be paired with other like-minded people, and probably some mentors that want to teach. No one wants to teach mechanics in a farm.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

He isn't talking about farm parties or clear parties in the party finder. He is talking about the ability within the raid finder to only allow those that have cleared. Just FYI.

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Yes and that allows farms while using the RF
and it allows farm parties to make sure that everyone has the clear before queueing up for the content. If one person in the group doesnt has the clear, but you select that option, the game wont let you queue up. If that happens you can remove the bonus-person before getting into the content, making it more likely for the rest of the group to stick around.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

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Then the majority should work together to accomplish their goals. In the long run, that will feel a lot better than joining a farm party and be carried knowing that they contributed very little to the overall success of the party.