WAR's 2.1 changes.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not necessarily.
For example, if PLD was sturdy enough to either solo tank some things that WAR couldn't, or survive with much much less healing, allowing either a heal to go full DPS or even to replace one heal to bring an additionnal DPS. And yes, if it comes to that, I'd even be okay if PLD's damage was really abysmally low :p

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If it was balanced to a point where the PLD was practicially self sufficient and it would allow the healer to DPS it might not be so bad.

But it opens a different can of worms in that your potential DPS contribution is now solely in the hands of the healer.

Now it's up to the healer to decide if they want to be as they would say: "a dps with some healing responsibilities"
or they want to live to only heal because "they're a healer."

You get problems where a PLD is now probably stuck in a dungeon with a healer with his/her thumb up their {rear} watching netflix or something and all the PLD can do is make damage non existent and hope atleast the other two DPS are confident because his contributions are being squandered by the 'healer'.

Or the whole solo tank shish kebob that was prevalent in SCoB where one of the tank slots was replaced by a DPS because the main tank could handle everything. Devalueing tanks and making them feel less needed then they should.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

You get problems where a PLD is now probably stuck in a dungeon with a healer with his/her thumb up their {rear} watching netflix or something and all the PLD can do is make damage non existent and hope atleast the other two DPS are confident because his contributions are being squandered by the 'healer'.

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In dungeons I don't think it would be that bad. Especially since I imagined PLD could trade its damage for mitigation progressively. So, you could stick to the "usual" mitigation in 4-man group, and stack up the real turtle shield in 8-man.

To sum up, I posted an idea where PLD would have a skill working a little like Enochian. He would spend half its MP pool to put a buff on Shield Oath (-10% damage taken, -10% damage dealt, +1 enmity multiplier), for a set duration. And each time you cast it again, you'll gain another stack and you refresh the duration with a 5 seconds penalty. So your highest mitigation would depend on how you manage your MP until you have no choice but to let it wear off.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Devalueing tanks and making them feel less needed then they should.

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This is not an issue. If you have two tanks beside PLD, bring them. It would just be another setup. Tank damage would just need to be balance so that 2 tanks + 2 healers + 4 DPS deals roughly the same as 1 PLD + 2 healers + 5 DPS. Or 1 PLD + 1 DPS = 2 tanks

1 PLD setup not only makes group compositions less dynamic where its either PLD or WAR and DRK/WAR and WAR/DRK and DRK(lol).

It would make content designing alot more constricted in that they have to make all content manageable by 1 tank. I.E Sephirot's two towers. PLD can not stand in both.
A1S, PLD cannot tank both bosses together. A4S, a DPS cannot tank the add in the room. And a plethora of other mechanics where there needs to be a tank in 2 separate locations.

If you make raid content where only 1 tank is ever needed, why would you honestly ever want 2 tanks. The other tank is literally doing nothing but DPSing in that situation. Why find 2 tanks when you can just get 1 PLD? What if you only have a WAR/DRK? Now you HAVE to find another WAR/DRK or eat a the penalty of having lower DPS with a PLD/Tank setup.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

It would make content designing alot more constricted in that they have to make all content manageable by 1 tank.

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Not all content. Some would be enough. You would have content where the optimal setup would be one tank, and other where two tanks are needed. If the number of duties for one and the other are almost even, it would be ok. Like you have content that favors DRK MT or PLD MT depending on the type of damage.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

If you make raid content where only 1 tank is ever needed, why would you honestly ever want 2 tanks.Why find 2 tanks when you can just get 1 PLD?

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Because sometimes, you don't have a PLD in your group. Or you have two DRK/WAR friends that want to join your party.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

What if you only have a WAR/DRK? Now you HAVE to find another WAR/DRK or eat a the penalty of having lower DPS with a PLD/Tank setup.

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It's already like that now. Bringing a PLD means you take a slight penalty over any other tank. Not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not all content. Some would be enough. You would have content where the optimal setup would be one tank, and other where two tanks are needed. If the number of duties for one and the other are almost even, it would be ok. Like you have content that favors DRK MT or PLD MT depending on the type of damage.

Because sometimes, you don't have a PLD in your group. Or you have two DRK/WAR friends that want to join your party.

It's already like that now. Bringing a PLD means you take a slight penalty over any other tank. Not a big deal.

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Not necessarily anymore lol. PLD isn't as bad as people make it out to be and I hope this dumb stigma dies. They still provide some significant utility in the form of HG, RoH, Cover and Divine Veil. So their balance is pretty even now only requiring a few minor tweaks to give each tank a turn at FoTM.

I feel it is far too much of a hassle to constantly design content just for PLD to work or vice versa because it cannot co-operate with the other two tanks. People will always take the path of least resistance so it will always turn to the standard and any less is sub optimal.

You make a fight that is solo-tankable and you ideally want a PLD. Now your raid static has to ask your WAR/DRK to change to PLD/DPS despite maining their role. Or vice versa because you now need a WAR/DRK because PLD/TANK is not viable and PLD/DPS cannot be done.

Doesn't this sound like PLD in Gordias?

Not to mention in 24 mans, alliances would be moaning about having a PLD or WAR/DRK. What if you get 3 WARs but you need a PLD MT to survive a tank buster? What if you only need a WAR/DRK level mitigation in which case PLD is just a gimped tank? What if WAR/DRK want to play MT instead of sidekick OT? What if PLD wants to have some time to use his sword/white magic instead of holding his shield all the time?

Now we need to teach healers that you have to heal WAR/DRK, but don't need to heal PLD at all and just go full DPS. Forcing them to play completely differently just to fulfill a class' huge weakness does not sound like good game design to me.

TL:DR I don't mind PLD being a meatshield to fufill people's desire of an immovable wall(although I personally don't see the appeal in being nothing but an inanimate object lol), I just don't see it working out in terms of balance in regards to the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Not necessarily anymore lol. PLD isn't as bad as people make it out to be and I hope this dumb stigma dies.

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Indeed. But the changes they made to PLD were easy and bland. It's a good thing for balance, but not very interesting when it comes to job identity.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

You make a fight that is solo-tankable and you ideally want a PLD.

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Why would you idealy want a PLD just because the content is doable with only one tank ? We had solo tank strat in Coil, but PLD's damage output was not that low compared to WAR. So, yes, having only a PLD to bring another DPS was a huge party-DPS boost.
Let's imagine you have a group of friends including a PLD, a DRK, a WAR, and enough DPS and healers for any setup you want. If having 2 tanks + 2 healers + 4 DPS offers the same overall DPS as 1 PLD + 2healers + 5 DPS, what make you chose PLD over the two tanks ?

The way I see it, it's not "Sorry, you can't come if you're not that job", but more "Ok, we have those jobs, let's use this setup instead of this one"

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

What if you get 3 WARs but you need a PLD MT to survive a tank buster? What if you only need a WAR/DRK level mitigation in which case PLD is just a gimped tank? What if WAR/DRK want to play MT instead of sidekick OT? What if PLD wants to have some time to use his sword/white magic instead of holding his shield all the time?

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You wouldn't need a PLD. All 3 tanks would still be able to "normally" tank any content. Besides, in 24-man, you're not really that picky about the jobs you have, and setups are made for one tank per party since Syrcus tower :p
And again, if you have to play PLD in a dual tank setu^p, then it would be the same PLD as now, since the mitigation stacks would be something you decide to use only when you really need it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

but PLD's damage output was not that low compared to WAR.

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PLD is still the worst DPS tank ever since 2.0, no matter how pretty people want to word it. I can guarantee you when SE releases a hard DPS check like Gordias, people will complain again. PLD is by far the most played but all of tanks the worse DPS dealer. Midas has been great for PLD/MNK (added safety) setup so far since DPS checks aren't tough at all, let's see how it holds to the next raid patch.

See logs if you aren't convinced at all. It's 100% truth that PLD sucks at DPS-ing.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

PLD is still the worst DPS tank ever since 2.0, no matter how pretty people want to word it. I can guarantee you when SE releases a hard DPS check like Gordias, people will complain again.

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Did you actually read my suggestion ?
The idea is, again, to adjust PLD so that it would be much much sturdier. To the point where you'd need far less healing when two tanks are still needed, so one healer will DPS almost full time, or even to solo tank, thus bringing an additionnal DPS.
If this new setup brings the same overall DPS, it doesn't matter if PLD's personal DPS is lower than WAR or DRK.

Oh, and by the way, PLD does not suck at DPS-ing under Sword Oath.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

See logs if you aren't convinced at all. It's 100% truth that PLD sucks at DPS-ing.

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Dark Knight and Paladin DpS numbers on the logs are actually fairly close together. The top scoring Paladin on Hummelfaust is actually above the top Dark Knight.

Going off the top 10 dps numbers it seems that Paladin does about 10% less damage than Dark Knight which does 10% less damage than Warrior.

i know we're talking about tanks, but i feel like how they balance dps is based on several things like damage vs utility, damage over ease of play, etc. So we got the damage line up of the tanks 10% difference is good, now can we talk utility and mitigation between the three? How about playability and skill required(cant use positionals here, since thats just the dps metric it seems) do they really fit as war most dps, least mit and utility, drk - in the middle, pld least dps highest mit and utility... cause i feel like this is the "place" they want the tanks to be...why do i feel like something is off by quite a bit? this is just my opinion, maybe its wrong but drk doesnt really feel like the middle ground here...