The trinity, party responsibility, and how to try and improve the game from within

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I gave a thought to it after reading you, but I can't see it working any different than what we have now. Tanks would still maximize their dps as much as they can (and that would just make it harder for them than now because they already don't have hate issues, except PLD), healers would have more time to do nothing (stronger heals mean more uptime for other stuff, but you nerf this other stuff), and DDs would just die quicker to everything thrown at them in raids.

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I understand. Let me explain what I was thinKing in those terms specifically.

The idea was to make tank and healer DPS small enough that is comparatively inconsequential compared to DD DPS. DDs become more powerful, but weaker in defense requiring more support from tanks and healers. Healers may have better output, but with fragile DDs they need to focus on healing more, tanks too need to help with mitigation where possible. So both healer and tank end up sharing the load of party support in addition to their primary role, giving DDs a clear road to do their thing.

You identified a problem with the homogenization of damage dealing in FFXIV, I think it's a big problem, because it really diminishes the power and role of DDs.

Imagine battles where PLD *has* to use cover to protect a BLM or SMN, or perhaps even a DRG, whereshields and other mitigation effects from tank/healer skills are absolutely needed to mitigate damage on DDs so the healers can keep up. By making DDs more fragile, it's more important that the tanks hold aggro andpick up adds, so they have better aggro multipliers. Pushing DD DPS higher and otherrole's DPS lower, you create the differentiation that makes each role special and different.

If healer/tank DPS is low enough, they will not be able to prevail without DDs, and so they must protect the DDs, heal them, and even raise them, in order to complete a fight.

The game already has an easy system. Tanks and Healers do do less damage then DD's. A lot of Damage Dealers are just very lazy and can't put out the numbers they should be putting out.

Damage is too important in this game, honestly. That is the real issue.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

You say that based on other MMOs, not based on this one. On FFXIV, this is indeed the norm, ever since Sastasha. I ran it as WHM the other day and had to use Cure only two times the entire dungeon. Stone is Level 1, Aero is level 4 and Cleric Stance is level 6.

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It is a norm forced by the community, not by the devs.

Yoshida said in an interview, that during difficulty balancing no damage is expected by the healer (not even auto-attack damage), and that a healer only have to do damage if either the DPS classes are undergeared or just play bad.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

So, a healer doing damage should be a red alarm sign for the DPS classes.

maybe the devs should build in a tome reward penalty for DPS classes if the healer did more damage than they.

I both agree and disagree.

I agree that Tanks and Healers DPS has allowed actual DPS to (on occasion, not everyone) be lazy in content because a good healer/tank will pick up the slack and it will go unnoticed.

HOWEVER, this isn't really a design issue, because there is no cap on group DPS. If everyone worked toward clearing the instance as best they could, no matter what color their icon is, the run will be better than if one person decided to only do the bare minimum of what is necessary.

Also, I've said this in other threads too: The trinity is for DF purposes only. If it was so essential then the phrase "composition not imposed on pre-formed parties" would not exist. The trinity's purpose is to ensure that a group of random players has a diverse enough combined toolkit to clear an instance easily. Once you're in the instance, ALL party members objectives are the same, and a good team player will be using 100% of their given toolkit to successfully achieve those goals efficiently. Again, the color of their icon shouldn't matter here. It really is not the end of the world if the "trinity" gets broken down a little bit. It's just an arbitrary classification.

Any player DELIBERATELY choosing to do less than their best is being inconsiderate. Not against the rules per se, but there may be consequences imposed within the group and since the choice to play sub-optimally was made, personal responsibility needs to be taken for that choice.

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Originally Posted by Felis

It is a norm forced by the community, not by the devs.

Yoshida said in an interview, that during difficulty balancing no damage is expected by the healer, and that a healer only have to do damage if either the DPS classes are undergeared or just play bad.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

So, a healer doing damage should be a red alarm sign for the DPS classes.

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The dev's don't 'force' anything. They create content that encourages a playstyle. In this sense, they created content and designed jobs in a way that encourages healers to take part in damage dealing. Therefore, the community has adopted this and is now a norm.

Just to clarify, the dev's don't force a healer to heal either.

The topic at hand is if this is a problem (which is evidenced of the quantity of threads on the subject), and what we and/or the devs can do to address it.

Removing DPS checks from raids/groups would be a long time improvement to the life of the game. Enrage timers and such are just bad game design.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

A lot of Damage Dealers are just very lazy and can't put out the numbers they should be putting out.

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Opinion noted.

Do you have solid numbers for every class at every level wearing appropriate gear in an appropriate instance to back it up?

Present it in an Excel spreadsheet and then we can discuss whether your opinion is backed up by evidence, or if it is purely anecdotal for some relatively small sample size.

[Serious question] do you consider yourself a semi-professional gamer? I've found that those who want to be the very best tend to get frustrated when everyone cannot rise to their level of expertise.

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Originally Posted by Felis

So, a healer doing damage should be a red alarm sign for the DPS classes.

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As I have said before, any DD complaining about healer DPS had better damn well be doing good damage for their role before they open their mouth. Outside of raiding/end-game, if healer DPS is required by yoUr group, it's because the DDs are not doing well.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The dev's don't 'force' anything. They create content that encourages a playstyle. In this sense, they created content and designed jobs in a way that encourages healers to take part in damage dealing. Therefore, the community has adopted this and is now a norm.

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And also here Yoshida apologized for Alex Savage and said that they don't use those strict DPS checks anymore in the next Alex Savage.

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Originally Posted by Felis

And also here Yoshida apologized for Alex Savage and said that they don't use those strick DPS checks anymore in the next Alex Savage.

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I'm not sure if you misquoted. I can't tell how that is related to what I said.