PLD cant even hold the aggro for Alexander savage ...

78% is fine by me, still twice the reported gap from a dummy.

You don't compare just DPS, you compare DPs while tanking, or as you said, raid DPS, as a side note it is pretty common for people consider the 10% DPS gained from a slashing debuff to belong to the class which applies the debuff, like with DRG and BRD. After all, it isn't there without the class applying it.

Let's not forget, BRD and BLM used to parse about the same on a dummy in 2.0, BRD got a nerf.

It varies by raid but we have data for everything, and not in small quantities.

As for being able to say anything with the numbers, you can't put PLD on par regardless of which set you look at. As for the real value, that's he point, and it will always be better gaining insight from real data than going by dummy parses and not even trying to get something real.

@Spooky - I take the difference being far larger in 3 raids to 1 as reasonably conclusive, if you want to argue that 1 to 3 is a stronger case be my guest. While we are looking at other floors, I'd like to point out the dummy not being able to even begin to do A2S.

@Velox - Source?

I'm a pld, I hold aggro just fine on As3, perhaps have your ppd learn his place better? I only royal authority/goring blade the last half of the fight because aggros is important: if your team is dead on the floor cause the pld is trying to be a WAR nobody is dpsing.

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

@Velox - Source?

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Not "massive buffs" but:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Stance-on-Pld

So changes are happening, we just don't know any specifics.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Compare that to the 9001 AoE abilities of DRK and the enmity WAR makes with Overpower and Steel Cyclone, though, and PLD AoE is horribly weak.

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It's not that weak, yeah it might need a slight buff to be better for those PLD's who go dungeoning with DPS with like higher iLV than the PLD but it's doing fine if ye close in terms of iLV.

I don't have any trouble keeping Aggro at all with flash but the potency of Flash I like to know.

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

snip

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The point was that numbers are just numbers, and their interpretation is a long, hard and tricky work. Each job has strong and weak points, and personal dps isn't the only thing to look for (see : AS2 for PLDs). And if we are to look for raid dps, you have to take into account the dps the healers gain by having a PLD because there are more CDs to defend oneself, constant potency decrease on every physical attack, etc... (even if that's in a perfect 0% overhealing scenario).

If tomorrow a fight requiring strict CD rotation to even barely survive normal hits comes, WARs will be screwed and forced to stay in safe mode most of the time, relying on unchained, while PLDs will have way more room to dps.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

It's not that weak, yeah it might need a slight buff to be better for those PLD's who go dungeoning with DPS with like higher iLV than the PLD but it's doing fine if ye close in terms of iLV.

I don't have any trouble keeping Aggro at all with flash but the potency of Flash I like to know.

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Flash is 500 potency

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Compare that to the 9001 AoE abilities of DRK and the enmity WAR makes with Overpower and Steel Cyclone, though, and PLD AoE is horribly weak.

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PLD has absolutely no trouble holding aoe enmity. Flash is as powerful as an unMaimed Overpower, and Circle of Scorn is off gcd. If you have any trouble with it, you're doing something wrong. A couple of Flashes let you rotate Goring Blade on multiple targets, with an occasional extra Flash for more enmity and the blind.

Thanks I was aware of that one but was hoping Velox had seen something new and recent, exagaration and disappointment :/

Edit: WAR would probably be fine in a fixed rotation, it still has oGCD dancing and preserves stacks, the other two do not have oGCD and have to pay costs to swap. The only time WAR would be unable to dance is if the busters were less than 20s (2x defiance timer) apart and in that case PLD would full time tank stance because the 2 GCD loss every 8 would make stance dancing less DPS ban staying in shield, in shield PLDs DPS is MUCH worse than Defiance WAR and PLD would run out of garunteed cooldowns very fast because it's recasts are so long. In fact WAR would do best because it is the one with inner beast every ~17s

As for healer DPS, half of PLDs problem comes from the fact that even in DPS stances the gap between it and WAR in mitigation isn't really that big. Its cooldowns are longer and durations often shorter, maybe shelltron could do a little bit but a buster hit would still require the top up before and after. Also mentioning Halone, I am pretty sure most PLDs are pretty envious of storms path.

I'm also pretty sure the PLD for A2S thing died out a while ago, last I have read is BG tank forums talking about how WAR DRK or WAR WAR makes a mockery of anything with PLD and is no less safe. At least there PLD being better than DRK or WAR is treated as a misconception.

PLDs that cant hold agro need to git gud

umm forget PLDs holding agro even if they can cause atm they have to be carried cause dps of the 3 tanks is lowest and PLD's survivability is no better than DRK and WAR unless you want to try to prove a same I-level WAR or DRK cant out dps a PLD and that's impossible unless the WAR/DRK is either bribed in test or just suck and or feeling sorry and low parsing dps deliberately to pretend the gap isn't so much to keep WAR and DRK safe while SE thinks PLD balanced and thus WAR/DRK preferred always cause most end game raiders know PLD has major DPS issues and doesn't bring any more defense worth even mentioning that is unless your a WAR/DRK lover trying to hide the truth that PLD's have no superior defensive capability's so WAR/DRK maintain tank slot 1 and 2 cause who needs 3 tanks right?

I think some people are really dense, comparing dummy dps in a "lab" enviroment is plain wrong, it doesn't, and will never come to comparing a class in real world enviroments.

Paladin's enimty is low, that is FACT. Does it have to do with Paladin Savage Blade, and Rage of Halone being weak aggro multipliers, yes part of it, but dmg also contributes to aggro generation...so with low dps, and low aggro generation how is a Paladin suppose to compete in a high, dps enviroment?

How many people actually raid on Paladin here, that is also in a static? How high is your dps for people that dps in your static, it must be low if you have zero aggro issues tanking as a Paladin. Fact is if you are a Paladin, and want to do higher numbers yourself you either A. Let the other tank, tank everything while you just stay in Sword Oath. B. Avoid any use of Halone Combo/Flash/Shield Swipe/Shield Bash/avoid stance dancing as much as possible, because all of these is a dps lost for Paladin. C. Let the other tank start out on the boss to build aggro, if the raid group wants you to be mt. You just provoke off the other tank when they are done, while you as a Paladin live off thier aggro generation as long as possible, till you have to change back to Shield Oath to eat a buster or to generate more aggro. D. Become best buddies with your ninja in your static, if you don't have one well...sorry. E. Drop Paladin and play Dark Knight or Warrior instead.