"Base/Simple" stigma of Paladin and how we must deal with it/prepare for the future.

Correction: If tank busters were physical with cast timers PLD would be usable.

WAR would still be king.

Also, alternating being bad between two classes every 6 months is awful design.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If the tank busters were physical and not magical PLDs would be King. I say wait for next content patch then cry.

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Lol i hope you are not implying we are "crying" mainly because the content has magical tank busters.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The problem is not PLD's design, but the fact the devs allowed the tank meta to focus on DPS. That in itself is the result of not designing tanks to keep them tanking in their tank stance (since a good part of the DPS issue wouldn't exist if they had; all it would mean is that raids would have had to spend an extra week or two or esoterics to gear their DPS appropriately to meet the checks in Alexander).

The desire for "simple" comes from the fact half the people on these forums want PLD turned into a WAR or DRK facsimile for the sake of increasing its DPS.

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Have the devs really forced this though?Could it also be that Alex Savage was designed to be super hard unless you'd saved up your tomes and bought all that i200 gear..I doubt it was made to be cleared in the first few weeks.It was designed like coil was when it first came out. .I doubt the devs would make content that wasn't viable with all tank situations.

Here's 2 thought, just 2 since I do not have DRK leveled yet.

For Paladin: Make Shelltron block the next attack, AND reduce magic damage by 20% for 6 seconds.
PLD Magic Inferiority fixed. Its up more often than Dark Mind, but also weaker. Its basically IB but w/ less Physical damage reduction.

For Warrior: Make Butcher's Block give 2 stacks of Wrath when comboed off of Skull Sunder.
Nowadays most WARs end up rotating Storm's Eye and Path, to maintain both debuffs, foregoing BB since they generate enough aggro to skid by.
By making BB produce an extra Wrath stack you can use IB more often, at the cost of either foregoing 1 of the Storm debuffs, or having less than 100% uptime on both.
This also makes it so you can do 1 Storm combo followed by 1 BB combo to have 5 stacks, making the "tanking" rotation smoother.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Except the DF always tells me I'm needed, how can I not be the best if I'm not needed? They always need me.

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The same way Duty finder tells us we need 1 tank, 2 dps, and 1 healer. ;x Healer ends up being Astro pre - buffs. Tank ends up being a pld that only uses RoH and neglects flash for aoe hate, really wanting to be a warrior. The two dps are some how being out parsed by the RoH paladin. ;P

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Have the devs really forced this though? Could it also be that Alex Savage was designed to be super hard unless you'd saved up your tomes and bought all that i200 gear..I doubt it was made to be cleared in the first few weeks.It was designed like coil was when it first came out. I doubt the devs would make content that wasn't viable with all tank situations.

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The devs didn't force it, but they didn't do anything to prevent or derail what happened early enough, either. Even if Alex Savage was designed to be cleared in full i200 esoterics gear regardless of who is doing the tanking, it still doesn't negate that raids have used things to circumvent that. This in itself would be fine if it was determined by execution of mechanics, but instead it seems clears hinge on DPS from non-DPS jobs. I knew something was wrong when people started talking about how tanks should tank in DPS stance (the thing that's implemented for off-tanking).

What we're seeing is also trends forming and the playerbase judging jobs based on that. While some will delude themselves into thinking the contrary, the guilds that do world first clears and cutting edge content determine how everyone else sees and uses classes/jobs. The fact this hasn't sorted itself out and instead gotten worse (from "PLD has lacking DPS but brings utility" to "PLD is useless because it doesn't bring WAR-level DPS") is cause for concern.

I agree. If AS 1,3 and 4 didn't focus as much on magical damage, I'm pretty sure PLD would be chosen over DRK. That being said, I find it very hard to maximise my dps (sword oath) while still holding aggro against a warrior in deliverance. I really do think it's stupid that Butcher's Block is a part of a warrior's DPS rotation, while also generating the highest possible enmity. This was the problem with PLD OT in 2.x, and so many people complained about it. Now the same problem is present.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

*snip*

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Well said. You are quite the inspiration to those of us whose passions override our ability to voice our thoughts in a calm and thoughtful manner.

It is truly baffling how people start judging jobs because of the raid comp of the world first raid group that was successful. if you're not going for world first you don't have to go for the "best" raid comp, you need better synergy with your group and keep farming Alex N and getting eso tomes. You want dual Drk or Pld? Go right ahead buddy. If your failing the DPS checks then tell your damage dealers to git gud!

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Originally Posted by kaox_reaper

It is truly baffling how people start judging jobs because of the raid comp of the world first raid group that was successful. if you're not going for world first you don't have to go for the "best" raid comp, you need better synergy with your group and keep farming Alex N and getting eso tomes. You want dual Drk or Pld? Go right ahead buddy. If your failing the DPS checks then tell your damage dealers to git gud!

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Literally the "git gud" answer is the most retarded reply you can possibly give. PLD's are behind in the meta due to low DPS AND low defensive raid utility. Please compare the mitigation effects of divine veil versus delirium against Splash x6 into Cascade, (or hell even just cascade since divine veil CAN ONLY BE UP FOR EVERY OTHER ONE). That is really one of many examples people can give. Telling our raid's damage classes to "git gud" has absolutely nothing to do with the current problems of PLD.