Don't you think the different between Def of Pld/War is so little compare to dps?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You can do the same w/ DRK (or PLD) + WAR + NIN, WAR + WAR is just the most optimized for that fight due to the split.

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I'm going to have to ask to prove this then. Because I have serious doubts that you can do this without two Warriors because:

1) Ninja is not going to be able to do enough damage and keep the slashing debuff up for the PLD or DRK and come anywhere close to the dmg the MNK and DRG were able to push out.
2) There is no way in hell a PLD or DRK is going to push anything close to those numbers while tanking even with a Ninja slash debuff.


Also some solid points by Brian. And just to add another, the bursty damage nature of Warrior damage also fits the phase change meta that most bosses follow. A lot of people seem to be under the very wrong impression that the other tanks can 'catch up' to Warrior damage due to the lower overall potency of their combos. This is very wrong as the phase change downtime hurts PLD damage a huge amount (and DRKs to a lesser extent since they have no real burst abilities other than a few oGCDs) where the phase changes are happening in between Warrior burst cooldowns. This is the basic reason why the dummy parse is well...dumb because real fights play into the burst damage method of Warriors. This is why you see Warriors at 1-1.1k on A1S while the other two tanks are lucky to be at 600-800DPS for the fight.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

The above

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I totally agree with you. What this forum lacks are numbers coming from actual situations rather than bland theory crafting based on optimal situations which never happen in reality.

You made a great point with Hallowed Ground it's probably not that great (or at least not yet) because they want to balance things out and make things doable with any tank comp. But even then I can't understand why SE did give Equilibrium to warriors, it's like the least of their concerns. I never ran into TP issues on a solo target because thanks to pacification and things like fell cleave being on the gcd it allows the warrior to have an excellent TP management. It's getting really useful on A2 where you have to spam overpower under deliverance but that's it. Tanks like DRK are starving and begging for TP after 2m30 and would have had a better use for this kind of spell, it doesn't feel right.

SE literally said "we want warrior to have more damage" but yet gives it two amazing utility spell and an amazing versatility overall. Nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Like a lot of people have pointed out, the video Phoenicia keeps linking has a number of flaws.

I stopped taking him seriously because the BG forums treat him like a joke. And, in general, I respect their overall opinion on things much more than these forums.

No point in 5 minute parses. All of their rotations just repeat after a certain point and the strange cut off point only messes with the numbers. The only point it shows is how hilariously bad the TP issues are for DRK and PLD.

PLD and DRK are given TP support and 100% uptime on the slashing debuff at no personal expense.

WARs are given no TP support (because they don't need it), have no one removing pacification from them after berserk, and cannot use their optimal DPS rotation because they have to upkeep the slashing debuff themselves (Maim's upkeep allows for SE>BB>BB, SE's upkeep forces you to SE>BB).

All in all, it's a dummy parse of pure DPS output. In a live raid, it's far from as ideal. If any tanking is involved, the PLD's DPS will drop because RoH is their lowest potency combo while BB is the WAR's highest potency combo.

On A1S where there are jump phases, I still find myself needing to weave in shield swipes in order to not bottom out on TP as PLD and as a DRK, I have to use unmend as filler after bottoming out on TP. I guess I could also just not use Blood Weapon off CD but that would also be a DPS loss. So, the only way to deal with it without having a loss of raid DPS is for a NIN to goad you (BRD singing is a DPS loss). It's not balanced that 2/3 tanks require that. And, on that point about NIN, unless you have one in your raid, you won't have 100% up-time on the slashing debuff as a PLD or DRK after 0.5 enters the fight. Even then, it's a DPS loss for the NIN and the slashing debuff can fall off while the NIN is off playing with his add. WAR has no such issues with TP or with the slashing debuff.

A2S is what I would consider an actual trade off. Hallowed Ground allows you to cheese a wave which is actually important. You are giving up 300-500 raid DPS in bringing a PLD vs. a DRK / WAR but HG really helps stabilize your raid during the last few waves. What people need to realize about Hallowed Ground is that it hasn't been as good in HW yet. There are situations where it's just another defensive CD like A1S and A3S. Then there are situations where it's raid changing like in A2S or Ravana EX. There was an abundance of the latter in FCoB. In T10, paired with tempered will (and Holmgang), it basically just negated the tank swap mechanic. In T12, it let you just ignore one revelation cycle. In T13, it made later Akh Morns a lot more manageable. It altered the way you did content which is why it was so good. AS hasn't been designed in the same way -- probably for tank balance concerns. Ultimately, it comes around to hurt PLD's because their stand-out ability has been marginalized.

A3S you have the hand phases where the boss splits and you have a similar situation to A1S. You also have polarities which result in the slashing debuff likely falling off. You also have the WAR leaving the boss to handle tethers which also results in the slashing debuff falling off.

From what I've seen, heard, and experienced of live situations, the difference while MTing is something like 80-100 DPS (somewhere around 10~15% higher DPS for the WAR). While OTing, it's closer to 100-200 DPS depending on downtime (somewhere around 10~20% higher DPS for the WAR). It's not a gigantic difference in DPS but it's a difference that matters. So you give Warriors the best tank DPS (MT and OT), the best tank utility, and better raid comp choices as a result while also giving them adequate survivability. Good for them. Now bring the other tanks in line with that so that there is some semblance of balance and a real choice to make when composing a raid.

You should be able to bring any two of the three tanks to any content and be able to perform equally overall. As is, PLD / DRK comps are strictly worse. You have less raid DPS even with a NIN keeping the slashing debuff up and less raid mitigation.

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The BG forums and Mr Happy are a joke on Guildwork. Heck, the whole official forums are a joke on Guildwork. Posts like this end up there for joke fodder. So saying that me being a joke on a joke forums platform proves nothing other than encouraging hateful comments on these forums. I won't stoop as low. Oh and please take me seriously, I can't live if you don't! I mean the world definitely revolves around you and you only! Btw, nothing against Mr Happy or the people on BG forums. I was just trying to point out the effect of such comments.

The whole people pointing out that the dummy video has flows are mainly you and Anger. It's not a perfect video but it IS a guide line.

I never said PLD and DRK TP issues are balanced. But they are for the most part negligible because almost none of the fights have you sit on the boss for over 2 minutes without breaks.

WAR doing SE > BB > BB is NOT optimal for DPS, it is for aggro, not DPS. Anyone thinking it's optimal has no idea how WAR works and is just spewing BS. If that's the level of BG forums, I can see why they are the joke of Guildwork. (Not that Guildwork people are of any consequence).

Maim lasts 24 seconds, that's 9.6 GCDs. Following SE > BB > BB, you have EXACTLY 9 GCDs before you reach Maim again, this leaves you no space to use Fracture or Fell Cleave, use 1 GCD and Maim drops before reapplied and you will have at least 1 hit without Maim. Using Infuriate for double Fell Cleave is out of the question. Berserk Pacification screws you hard.

In a SE > BB > BB, dropping Fracture is a DPS loss because fracture is ~93 potency higher than your average potency. Fell Cleave is an obvious DPS loss as well. There is NEVER a situation where WAR will do SE > BB > BB where it is optimal. So even if 2 warriors coordinate it, it's not ideal. Try it, you can test it in game, I'm not gonna bother proving it to you.

Yes, WAR not getting Esuna on pacification was not ideal, but WAR wouldn't get Esuna all the time in actual fights. Even then, Esuna is not more than 20 DPS difference and it is a loss on the healers' DPS (Since that's the only thing behind Pacification removal in their priority list). It is not like if you Esuna the WAR he'll suddenly do 2k DPS and without TP DRK and PLD can't do DPS for the first 2.5 minutes (longer than 1.5 minute cycle!)

Also, 5 minute parses serve to normalize the effect of RNG on your DPS. Parses should be repeats of 1.5 minute cycles (Berserk/FOF CD). You repeat that cycle more often so crits are normalized. For example, a triple zerked FC critting along with a stream of lucky crits on t he other hits will edge your DPS higher than it should, you repeat that cycle a few times so lucky crit streaks and unlucky non-crit streams normalize each other. In the dummy video, you can capture the DPS right at the 4min30s mark. If you want, you can drop the TP buffs and just repeat the 1.5 min cycle (Pop FoF and stop when it comes back on CD, take a TP break, repeat) for 3 or 5 times. Take your DPS average and compare it to WAR. You'll get "more accurate" parses and normalized DPS difference.

As I stated before, in an ideal situation, the gap between classes is at its largest. Any non-ideal situation makes this gap smaller. Losing 10% DPS due to mechanics affects everyone's DPS equally. Also, another point which shows you don't know what you're talking about, any down time in a fight while Berserk is on CD is as beneficial to WAR as it is to PLD while FoF is on CD. Out of the three tanks, breaks affect DRK the most as they have no "burst phases" in their, pretty much, flat line DPS curve. You have it in the wrong order.

In my other video (A3S kill) a PLD did 730 DPS, which is only 70 DPS behind the WAR OT! Anyone saying PLD is so far behind WAR needs to link a video of a WAR MT in the same fight doing over 80 DPS (the disparity in the ideal (dummy) fight).

Also, stop looking at it as if NIN "loses" DPS without WAR. NIN applying DE is its optimal rotation. Having a WAR in party means it gains some DPS (70 DPS according to your so knowledgeable Mr Happy in his guide). That is like saying "MNK applying its own DK is a DPS loss because if another MNK applies it they can crit the Bootshine!"

Also, to any PLD saying Hallowed Ground isn't great: In 2.xx, WAR used to say "We're better MTs because we handle busters better!" and PLD's reply has always been: "No, we have Hallowed Ground!"...... The joke's on you now.

All I see here is PLDs refusing to accept the proof right before their eyes because they still cannot accept that they are no longer the MT of choice.

You're right that the PLDs are salty they're no longer the go to tanks. However it's kind obvious that a highly skilled warrior shines the most. Warriors can range from hitting harder then dps due to skills like berserk, unchain, infuriate, and internal release. Eventually warriors will out scale other tanks due to high burst. Just enough defensive cd to help survive the horrors. So I can see the bias feeling towards warriors.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

WAR doing SE > BB > BB is NOT optimal for DPS, it is for aggro, not DPS. Anyone thinking it's optimal has no idea how WAR works and is just spewing BS. If that's the level of BG forums, I can see why they are the joke of Guildwork. (Not that Guildwork people are of any consequence).

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You're right. Unless someone else keeps the slashing debuff, like...another WAR doing SE > BB (repeat), maybe ?

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

All I see here is PLDs refusing to accept the proof right before their eyes because they still cannot accept that they are no longer the MT of choice.

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Ok, let's say we're not the MT of choice...it's cool, we can live with it.
But we're not the OT of choice too..

So, we're the...what ?

I mean what did you think was going to happen when they introduced ANOTHER tank ?

God help us when they introduce a forth tank <.<

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Originally Posted by Noira

I mean what did you think was going to happen when they introduced ANOTHER tank ?

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We could have :
- Best MT on single target
- Best MT on multiple targets
- Best OT on single target
- Best OT on multiple targets

Or we could have
- The tank that (heaviliy) mitigates
- The tank that heals
- The tank that buffs
- The tank that debuffs
- The tank that gives ressources

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're right. Unless someone else keeps the slashing debuff, like...another WAR doing SE > BB (repeat), maybe ?

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Unfortunately this puts you in a weird situation where the MT is using SE > BB and the OT is using SE > BB > BB. As long as they're equal on gear and the WAR opens with Unchained + buffs vs saving the buffs, I think it's perfectly viable. Alternatively, the WAR MT can do the SE > BB > BB and the OT can do SE > BB for safety (that's what I used to do in 2.0 at least).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, let's say we're not the MT of choice...it's cool, we can live with it.
But we're not the OT of choice too..

So, we're the...what ?

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While I understand this sentiment (you want to be included in general), if PLD were the OT of choice and DRK were the MT of choice... where would WAR be? :P

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

While I understand this sentiment (you want to be included in general), if PLD were the OT of choice and DRK were the MT of choice... where would DRK be? :P

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That's exactly why we didn't have an issue in 2.x.

And that's also why tank needs to have something more "unique", and that can only be applied when looking at the full party setup.[LIST][*]I suggested WAR to be the tank that "DPS"....which he already is, anyway.[*]PLD could be the tank that heals. More precisely, the off-tank that heals the main tank, with skill specifically designed for this. That would allow for setup with two tanks, only one heal (To keep the raid alive and occasionnaly heals the MT), and 5 DPS. Of course, focusing on healing the MT, the PLD wouldn't do much damage, but the additionnal DPS would balance the overall DPS.[*]And DRK could be the tank that "refills". DRK's gimmick include leeching HP and MP, what if it could put debuffs so that anyone hitting the target would either recover MP or TP. This way, you wouldn't need a MCH or BRD to do it so they can focus on DPSing. And again, the additionnal DPS gain by the BRD/MCH should be balanced by the DRK doing still a little less DPS than the WAR.

This way, there wouldn't be a "best" tank, but several setup, and each setup would work better depending on the content.
Several big targets ? Two tank, so a WAR is probably your best bet.
Single target for a short fight ? No ressource management, pick a PLD as an OT and a single healer.
Long fight where managing ressource can be difficult ? Bring a DRK to sustain everyone.

The concept would be that "Main tanking" wouldn't be where each tank shines, but instead, more emphasis would be on how to properly off-tank.

It's a raw idea, but it's an example on how tanks can be much more that just "surviving and keeping aggro" without automatically falling into "moar DPS !"

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

While I understand this sentiment (you want to be included in general), if PLD were the OT of choice and DRK were the MT of choice... where would DRK be? :P

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but that's where the unbalance is, there should not be a TANK OF CHOICE all tanks should be able to be good to either MT or OT not matte what class, that was YOSHI-P philosophy for a balance community, but we have this situation on which PLD is just not a "CHOICE" for either one or the other spot. if paladins where balance there would not be any problem on which tank is on the party and the difference they should bring is their play style and some minor raid utility that separates them from one or the other but ultimately will not exclude any of the other tank classes, but WAR does everything and better and DRK does almost everything and better than PLD so....