Ending the Parry debate once and for all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hundred

Part of the thing to realize is that Parry is going to get higher and higher until their next level cap raise when they revert the system.

Yeah I was able to get +380, but we're in 3.0. Gear is going to increase in 3.05, 3.01, 3.02, etc.
The bigger thing about Parry is that you can't really max Parry gear at the top Ilevel, you have to mix and match ilevels which obviously causes fluctuations in other stats. This is part of why people want to investigate Parry more and get real data.
I had what 22% Parry rate with 734 Parry, 25% will eventually be possible, but the question is well why try and reach that amount of Parry?

If I am being particularly blunt, Square doesn't really make itemization interesting. The real reason not to concern oneself with Parry is because Square doesnt emphasize it. The stat is deliberately weak, hell a damn lot of Vit gear doesn't have Parry which means a lot of Vit gear also doesn't mitigate anything. Hell all Vit Gear really does atm is get you better Stoneskins.

---

Another excellent point. Gearing for Parry also means losing many other stats since Parry isn't on everything. That being said, if we see a repeat of 2.0's system, we'll be looking at not just one, but two sets of gear at each major item level. Much the same way that Coil was the same ilvl as Myth. Second coil was the same ilvl as upgraded soldiery, Final Coil was the same ilvl as upgraded Poetics. So there is a distinct possibility that we will see Esoterics have the same ilvl as Alexander Savage gear. This would then lead players to want to mix and match gears from the same item level for more BiS pieces on both armor and trinkets, vit and str trinkets alike as well. However, since VIT is the only one that gets Parry among the trinkets, we are looking at another huge argument about what's BiS for this that and the other.

There's never really been an argument.
We already overgear everything that is currently put out. Everything currently is made for i170 and lower. Savage coil is going to be what the only new content for the next two months? Basically for everything else in the game players outgear it and don't need vit as a result. Bis relative to the majority of content is inarguably Str. Vit and Parry by extension will pretty much have all its value in savage temporarily. It's unfortunate but w/e.

Vit isn't horrendous and neither is Parry but in min/maxing Square sets up a significant margin of error and gives great benefits to offensive gearing so....

Essentially what you are arguing is that we can't dare make parry useful or else tanks might have to sacrifice damage for mitigation? It may blow your mind but a ton of people are perfectly ok with that. This isn't something that hasn't occurred to people proposing parry changes, for many it's an inherit benefit as a large number people believe tanks should be about mitigation first and foremost and the obsession with dps many tanks have is contrary to their role.

It wouldn't eliminate strength builds either, it'd simply make non-dps focused set ups more relevant, and actually increase potential gear choice (parry is on more than just right side gear). Even in your 10% over the course of a fight example, there are plenty of people who would still choose the increased damage. Choosing strength over vitality already introduces extra stress on your healers, as do things such as stance dancing while tanking, but these are acceptable sacrifices some people make.

I want my stats to matter as it is now just like before nothing matters, but cooldown usage and high stamina for tank busters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BadRNG

Essentially what you are arguing is that we can't dare make parry useful or else tanks might have to sacrifice damage for mitigation? It may blow your mind but a ton of people are perfectly ok with that. This isn't something that hasn't occurred to people proposing parry changes, for many it's an inherit benefit as a large number people believe tanks should be about mitigation first and foremost and the obsession with dps many tanks have is contrary to their role.

It wouldn't eliminate strength builds either, it'd simply make non-dps focused set ups more relevant, and actually increase potential gear choice (parry is on more than just right side gear). Even in your 10% over the course of a fight example, there are plenty of people who would still choose the increased damage. Choosing strength over vitality already introduces extra stress on your healers, as do things such as stance dancing while tanking, but these are acceptable sacrifices some people make.

---

This is all well and good, but you are much like several other people who ignore the fact that SE has explicitly said that they DO want tanks to DPS more. Tanks CAN and DO do well when it comes to DPS, and our HP pools already make most damage a joke to deal with. So what's the thought in going against what SE has said they already want by requesting tanks be pigeon holed into a defensive stat?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceodore

This is all well and good, but you are much like several other people who ignore the fact that SE has explicitly said that they DO want tanks to DPS more. Tanks CAN and DO do well when it comes to DPS, and our HP pools already make most damage a joke to deal with. So what's the thought in going against what SE has said they already want by requesting tanks be pigeon holed into a defensive stat?

---

I'm not sure if you quoted the wrong person, or if you simply didn't understand my post. You are arguing against a point I never made. I suppose I should point out I actually MT in STR accessories for content with my static, and that tank dps can certainly be decent. But none of that has anything to do with what I said.

As for what SE "wants", I can't speak for SE, but if it is the comment I am thinking of, you are likely taking what SE said out of context. Accounting for tank dps in fight design does not mean they expect all tanks to be in full STR gear and constantly stance dancing for optimum dps at all times. It could just as easily mean they account for tank dps in general - even a vit tank will be producing non-negligible dps. In fact it is highly unlikely they assume all tanks are set up that way, or that they even intend for them to be, after all - why design the fending accessories to begin with? Why even have a parry stat?

If anything you are asking for them to be pigeon holed into offensive stats by keeping parry so ineffective. As I said in my previous post, making parry relevant doesn't need to be the end of str accessories. It would simply make the choice even more meaningful. Some would choose the mitigation at all times, some would choose the damage at all times, and smart people would get a set of both and use whatever the situation demands. Essentially the same situation we are in now, except never feeling like having parry on a left side piece may be a "wasted" stat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BadRNG

It could just as easily mean they account for tank dps in general - even a vit tank will be producing non-negligible dps.

---

The actual, exact words used by Yoshi-P is this:

レイド攻略の際には一般の腕のプレーヤーがクリアできるであろうアイテムレベルを想定しています。その想定アイテムレベルに到達した4DPSとタンクの基礎DPSを合算して、さらに10％から15％のしきい値を下げてクリア想定を作っています。ヒーラーのDPSは計算に入れていません。

We take the item level at which we think the average-skilled player should be able to clear the content, use the dps that can be produced from that item level, take the sum of 4DPS and tank's base dps, then lower that by 10-15% to be the clear threshold. Healer dps is not counted.

So they account for the base tank dps, which some people seem to take to mean full STR build plus STR accessories and tanking in the dps stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zfz

The actual, exact words used by Yoshi-P is this:

レイド攻略の際には一般の腕のプレーヤーがクリアできるであろうアイテムレベルを想定しています。その想定アイテムレベルに到達した4DPSとタンクの基礎DPSを合算して、さらに10％から15％のしきい値を下げてクリア想定を作っています。ヒーラーのDPSは計算に入れていません。

We take the item level at which we think the average-skilled player should be able to clear the content, use the dps that can be produced from that item level, take the sum of 4DPS and tank's base dps, then lower that by 10-15% to be the clear threshold. Healer dps is not counted.

So they account for the base tank dps, which some people seem to take to mean full STR build plus STR accessories and tanking in the dps stance.

---

if so then those people are pretty stupid... because the word base would imply the damage they do with only the armor and without any accessory's or stat points...

No ones saying you need extra str on tanks though, just that it's more helpful than parry and excess vit. If you want to go all VIT than go ahead, it's just that if you know how to mitigate damage than you don't need as much vit. Parry isn't even considered because it's never a deciding factor as to weather you live or die in any fight ever. I imagine SE at least expects tanks to optimize their damage rotations however, like any class in the game. Extra str would be optional though. (unless you are going for world firsts I guess.)

The way some people go about these arguments makes it sound like they have to str spec and all that. You don't really need to. Is it sub-optimal? Yes, but not needed for clearing content. Kinda like parry actually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

No ones saying you need extra str on tanks though, just that it's more helpful than parry and excess vit. If you want to go all VIT than go ahead, it's just that if you know how to mitigate damage than you don't need as much vit. Parry isn't even considered because it's never a deciding factor as to weather you live or die in any fight ever. I imagine SE at least expects tanks to optimize their damage rotations however, like any class in the game. Extra str would be optional though. (unless you are going for world firsts I guess.)

The way some people go about these arguments makes it sound like they have to str spec and all that. You don't really need to. Is it sub-optimal? Yes, but not needed for clearing content. Kinda like parry actually.

---

Precisely! STR accessories means you just clear that content that much quicker. An inflated HP pool doesn't help as much as more damage going out if your group is skilled enough.