SCH vs AST?

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

He can't. He believes AST is perfect and that anyone who feels it has shortcomings that need to be addressed by SE is a "scrub."

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Lol I guess I have made my opinion seem that way. Sorry I'm just a long time gamer, the guy that can play the players in super smash that everyone considers bad and make them look good. I have said more than once that astro could use tweaking, but there are many threads so it prolly didn't reach many ears (eyes?). If you want the honest truth I've started leveling whm to 60 cause there has been multiple DF groups I can't carry as ast, where I could probably as whm. So there's that.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Lol I guess I have made my opinion seem that way. Sorry I'm just a long time gamer, the guy that can play the players in super smash that everyone considers bad and make them look good. I have said more than once that astro could use tweaking, but there are many threads so it prolly didn't reach many ears (eyes?). If you want the honest truth I've started leveling whm to 60 cause there has been multiple DF groups I can't carry as ast, where I could probably as whm. So there's that.

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Don't get me wrong, it's not that I dislike AST. I like it very much. In fact, back before the expansion actually came out, I really wanted it to become my main healer. I just feel that there are aspects of some of the skills that need heavy tweaking or new things added.

For example, they stated Celestial Opposition would get an "Ast like" tweak that would vary based on stance. So, I am hoping that it actually means a regen gets added in Diurnal or a shield in Nocturnal, because for such a gorgeous level 60 skill, it feels fairly useless right now (other than extending buffs by a whole 5 seconds).

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Lol I guess I have made my opinion seem that way. Sorry I'm just a long time gamer, the guy that can play the players in super smash that everyone considers bad and make them look good. I have said more than once that astro could use tweaking, but there are many threads so it prolly didn't reach many ears (eyes?). If you want the honest truth I've started leveling whm to 60 cause there has been multiple DF groups I can't carry as ast, where I could probably as whm. So there's that.

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I'm just going to reply to this since you used a fighting game example.

Being able to use a low tier character in a higher tier environment doesn't make them "not low tier". It just means you know how to play them at a high level of skill - this is more indicative of your skill as a player and less about the kit given to a particular character (or class/job, in the case of XIV).

If two players of equal skill play each other, and one picks a low tier character and the other picks a high tier character, the person who picked the higher tier character has a higher chance of success in winning the match.

This is the same thing here. Just because you know how to play AST at a higher level of skill than most means you do just that - you play AST at a higher skill level. It doesn't change the fact that the toolkit itself could use some work.

I'm not saying this to be negative towards you. I'm just providing you some food for thought so you can change the way you approach the thought process of balancing.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Astro can handle all current content fine

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Addendum: AST can heal all current content just fine if the group is competent and avoids avoidable damage.

If multiple players in your group are getting hit by AoEs, AST completely falls apart whereas the other healers have the emergency buttons to save a situation like this from becoming a wipe.

Also, AST's card buffs simply aren't worth the tradeoff of lacking the solid emergency options that the other healers have.

I have both AST and SCH and cleared all content so far with my static using both jobs. AST is fine, but SCH makes things a lot smoother. Just looking at the stats makes me sad. SCH heals 40% more than the AST (using Diurnal Sect, mind you) and those 40% are all comming from the pet, Lustrate and Indomability i.E. for free. Heck, looking at the numbers, if I constantly keep the Selene buff up it does basically the same than the AST cards, unless I have a really good draw. Not to mention the loss of E4E and Virus really hurt. Add the awesome SCH dps and mana management and it really feels like gimping my friends when I want to play around with cards. Kinda ironic seeing it is supposed to be a support kinda healer.

But once again: You can do all content with every healer combination.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

I hate to be that guy but there are multi pages threads right below you discussion this topic. The bottom line is AST isn't as reliable as the other two are because of less emergency heals and oh-shit that is happening buttons. But really to get a full understanding please read those threads.

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Lol don't worry about being that guy. If it not "use search" its "don't necro" or "don't derail"

Question though, how does it have less 'oh-shit' stuff than SCH?
AB is instant on gcd
ED is instant
Benefic II is a proc for instant
Light speed causes several things to be instant

I guess where im coming from is AST definitely doesnt throw out WHM heals, but SCH doesnt either and is still considered good. SCH has lustrate saves, but AST has access to more AoE than SCH and its saves are more accessible

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

I have both AST and SCH and cleared all content so far with my static using both jobs. AST is fine, but SCH makes things a lot smoother. Just looking at the stats makes me sad. SCH heals 40% more than the AST (using Diurnal Sect, mind you) and those 40% are all comming from the pet, Lustrate and Indomability i.E. for free. Heck, looking at the numbers, if I constantly keep the Selene buff up it does basically the same than the AST cards, unless I have a really good draw. Not to mention the loss of E4E and Virus really hurt. Add the awesome SCH dps and mana management and it really feels like gimping my friends when I want to play around with cards. Kinda ironic seeing it is supposed to be a support kinda healer.

But once again: You can do all content with every healer combination.

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I agree that AST needs buffs, especially in their cards... however a Scholar doesn't have any HoT outside of their pets/Eos. And their direct heal potencies are outright lower than AST. SCH pays half their healing potency in return to make that half they lost into a shield. We do not have consistent access to a cure2-equivalent ability at the same time, nor a media (1) ability equivalent. We traded those abilities for succor (150 healing potency) and aldoquim (300 heal potency). An AST will always have more access to direct healing than a scholar ever will just based upon that.

Also... Lustrate and indominability each cost an aetherflow stack which only 3 can be held every 60 seconds. They are not free and I am starting to become pissy whenever I read it is free. No, they are not free, they are on a separate currency than MP and bound to it. Blow 3 aetherflows on 3 600 potency (same as cure 2) abilities and then you lose access to indominability, 10% damage migation dome, bane and energy drain. You simply do not get these abilities. It is a tether to the abilities restricting their use as much as it is "free". You choose 3, any 3, and once you choose them you're done.

That does not equal free. It is a separate currency that needs to be managed wisely or you face a wipe.

Ast is a healer made for near if not perfect parties. Their buffs only shine when ur party is good etc.
There is kinda no middle ground atm with ast.
Being in a good party or a bad one will heavily dictate ur job's usefullness as healing stupid/ failed mechanic dmg is really hard as ast.
Player skill can only do so much till u hit that brick wall of i just cant. Then SE tells u to get good and play even better.
Y u do thissssss ;-;

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I agree that AST needs buffs, especially in their cards... however a Scholar doesn't have any HoT outside of their pets/Eos. And their direct heal potencies are outright lower than AST. SCH pays half their healing potency in return to make that half they lost into a shield. We do not have consistent access to a cure2-equivalent ability at the same time, nor a media (1) ability equivalent. We traded those abilities for succor (150 healing potency) and aldoquim (300 heal potency). An AST will always have more access to direct healing than a scholar ever will just based upon that.

Also... Lustrate and indominability each cost an aetherflow stack which only 3 can be held every 60 seconds. They are not free and I am starting to become pissy whenever I read it is free. No, they are not free, they are on a separate currency than MP and bound to it. Blow 3 aetherflows on 3 600 potency (same as cure 2) abilities and then you lose access to indominability, 10% damage migation dome, bane and energy drain. You simply do not get these abilities. It is a tether to the abilities restricting their use as much as it is "free". You choose 3, any 3, and once you choose them you're done.

That does not equal free. It is a separate currency that needs to be managed wisely or you face a wipe.

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You make a good point, and it's an important distinction. SCH's need to choose how to spend their resources just as smartly as AST. Adloquium and Succor are not spammable abilities, not only because of Galvanize, but their significantly higher MP cost. Benefic II, for example, is nearly 3/4 the cost of Adlo, with a higher potency. Smartly injecting Aetherflow abilities to minimize casted heals is what allows SCH their extended MP reach, not simply the access to 3 lustrates per minute.

AST does indeed have spammable abilities like Benefic II and Helios, but must budget their MP wisely to avoid running dry. We all need to be mindful of our resources, if you tap yourself out just dealing with the mundane in battle, you'll be caught off guard when someone makes a mistake, turning what could be a salvageable mistake into a costly res.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Lol don't worry about being that guy. If it not "use search" its "don't necro" or "don't derail"

Question though, how does it have less 'oh-shit' stuff than SCH?
AB is instant on gcd
ED is instant
Benefic II is a proc for instant
Light speed causes several things to be instant

I guess where im coming from is AST definitely doesnt throw out WHM heals, but SCH doesnt either and is still considered good. SCH has lustrate saves, but AST has access to more AoE than SCH and its saves are more accessible

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As a sch, I usually out-heal a whitemage, but maybe thats not the norm.
SCH instant heals don't lower healing potency by 25%
Sacred Soil, can be used twice a minute, allows scholar to keep casting and moving. Larger radius than Collective Unconscious too
Shadow Flare (aoe slow)
Fey Illumination: 20% healing buff
Fey Convalescence: 20% magic resistance
Dissipate: 20% healing buff
Lustrate/Indominability
Eye for an Eye
Virus

AST has a slightly higher mana pool than SCH, but vastly smaller mana recovery options.
An instant cast benefic2 doesn't help increase healing throughput, it simply gives you the heal at the start of the GCD instead of after it.
This is good for times when a dps accidentally takes a hit they shouldn't, and somehow barely survives, but its not good when you need *burst* healing for 20 seconds.
Essential Dignity is amazing, but its the only real emergency tool that AST have.
Not having eye for an eye is a huge drawback, but it doesn't surprise me that many people fail to see its value.

AST doesn't have any cooldowns to increase potency, only to decrease it. Arrow card on self is the only way they can increase their effective healing throughput, or a bole card, which is less effective than sacred soil. Neither card can be reliably used for an "emergency" without negating the only real support that they can offer.

AST can heal within normal range just fine, its when you try to push the limits of what is possible that their shortcomings show clearly. Try running a dungeon where you pull 4 groups of trash at a time, watch the tank pop cooldowns, and the AST, try as they might, have a very hard cap on how much healing throughput they can do in a 30s burst window. Both WHM and SCH will leave them in the dust.

Hopefully SE will address their shortcomings before savage comes out. It is a fun class, it just feels handicapped right now.