Ninja vs. Dragoon

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Originally Posted by Zamii

first off, we dont actually know if machinist will be piercing, im hoping it will be blunt as they seem to have more musket type weapons than they do typical bullets, but we'll see.

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While I guess it's not impossible that they're using potato guns and bean bag launchers, from a purely lore standpoint, the machinists of Ishgard are fighting dragons. The idea that they'd be fighting giant creatures with armored scales with blunt rounds instead of piercing makes, literally, no sense, by any metric, and if they did do it, it would be for literally no other reason than making mnks feel better about themselves.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

So, regardless of how you look at it, one additional set will lose you either mitigation or threat, because of the opportunity cost of doing a second maim inside of the maim buff window. You can make the case that you don't need the threat, but the cost is there.

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It may seem that way, but honestly, the extra 30% raw damage (20% from maim and 10% from eye) actually fairly well balances out the loss of a butcher block round. And if you can hold hate fine while keeping eye or path up, there is no actual loss. If you can't keep hate and maintain your chosen storm move, you are seriously undergeared. That is not a debate. that is a fact.

Yeah the loss of threat generated from using storm's eye combo doesn't really matter. You gain more by buffing yourself up to deal more damage and should be maintained as much as possible for warrior.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Right...perhaps you misunderstand.

Storm's eye vs Storm's path - you lose mitigation
Storm's eye vs BB - you lose threat

So, regardless of how you look at it, one additional set will lose you either mitigation or threat, because of the opportunity cost of doing a second maim inside of the maim buff window. You can make the case that you don't need the threat, but the cost is there.

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As OT you can always rotate SE > SP for minimal DPS loss (far less loss than a NIN has using Dancing Edge over Aeolian Edge), so there's no cost of any sorts attached in that scenario.

As MT you can coast off your opener's aggro depending on the turn and keep both up regardless, eventually. Unchained + Berserk aggro is simply too high. If you want to look at it as a scenario where you HAVE to keep up BB with a WAR MT, then NIN keeping up Dancing Edge is a relevant tool, but it's not very useful in practice.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

While I guess it's not impossible that they're using potato guns and bean bag launchers, from a purely lore standpoint, the machinists of Ishgard are fighting dragons. The idea that they'd be fighting giant creatures with armored scales with blunt rounds instead of piercing makes, literally, no sense, by any metric, and if they did do it, it would be for literally no other reason than making mnks feel better about themselves.

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Many of the MNK weapons in the game would really be more accurately categorized as piercing or slashing. I'm not sure how much they care about matching up damage type with flavor/lore. NIN could have been piercing too, at least for their "stabbers," but they fit into the game better as slashing. I'd wager bludgeoning is more likely for Machinist because there's no class that benefits from Dragon Kick's damage debuff outside of MNK itself. Piercing's possible but stacks the deck in favor of DRG, which they probably don't want.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

stuff

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Again though, when it comes to nin, it makes sense, daggers have a duality with them where they can honestly be used in either way. There are a number of reasons why slashing makes sense. If it were just rog, piercing or slashing would make sense, but nin fits in better as a slashing dps. Also, I think it went with slashing less for the fact that there were already 2 piercing dps, as they fact that there were 0 slashing dps.

The mnk weapon thing.... yeah. You're right on that call, and SE has even commented on this in the past, saying they'll try to get back into the blunt aesthetic.

As far as mcn, ignoring resistance decreasers, mnk still has way more utility than drg, and if we're talking about a situation where people are going to be super picky about what jobs they bring, odds are, they are NOT bringing both a brd and a mcn, so basically moot point there. And as I said before, unlike NIN, from a lore, and strategic standpoint, while various forms of blunt ammunition exist, primarily reserved for non lethal suppression, fighting armored opponents with blunt bullets makes, 0 sense. Like, not any sense in the slightest. I would actually go as far as to say, that if they designed mcn to use blunt bullets, it would, in fact, be stupid. And I'm sure the game designers see that too.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Many of the MNK weapons in the game would really be more accurately categorized as piercing or slashing. I'm not sure how much they care about matching up damage type with flavor/lore. NIN could have been piercing too, at least for their "stabbers," but they fit into the game better as slashing. I'd wager bludgeoning is more likely for Machinist because there's no class that benefits from Dragon Kick's damage debuff outside of MNK itself. Piercing's possible but stacks the deck in favor of DRG, which they probably don't want.

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It's not just a matter of weapon, but how you use that too. You cut and slice most of the time with daggers, regardless of the weapon. Same with the monk.

Bullets? They are made to pierce. While it IS true that bludgeoning is underused, I strongly doubt that MCN is not going to use piercing. MNK has other ways of supporting the party: not buffing the MCN is not something that will make DRG overpowered.

Edit: Zophar beat me to it.

Watch MCH have a new damage type all to itself.
It will be called Pew.

You heard it here first.

before i will have said ninja, now with the futur change i'm not sure.... seriously, we can't say now that one is better than another.
depending of what will come to the ninja i will not advice anyone to play it. it's already one of the most frustrating jobs to play because of the mudra lag and some mechanic of positional archaic that was not changed (TA that don't land the debuff if you are not behind)

on tops of that we will get positional and the new huton extend/refresh skill that is placed at the end of another combo.... giving to the ninja the only jobs that have one effect per combo, yes it's like this, dragoon and monk can land 2-3 debuff/buff with one combo, only the ninja need to use one combo per effect. that make the whole combo system quite a pain to manage and not as fluid than dragoon and monk.

ohh yes goad is nerfed with heavenward.... that leave us with the threat tool... that are quite situational, since a good tank will not need them.

about the burst of the ninja, we will need to wait the test at 60 for see if it's still the case, or if the dragoon with blood of the dragon skill will not get some insane burst, since i doubt the 4th skill after full thrust to be below this one... full thrust is already at 370 potency...

finally, it will depend too of what the player prefer, but in all honesty, the ninja futur don't seems extremely bright for me. i do hope to be wrong, but from the info we did get the jobs look not fun and more a chores for be well played.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ohh yes goad is nerfed with heavenward

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Ok, first off, how? I don't remember seeing that in the news anywhere.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

on tops of that we will get positional and the new huton extend/refresh skill that is placed at the end of another combo.... giving to the ninja the only jobs that have one effect per combo, yes it's like this, dragoon and monk can land 2-3 debuff/buff with one combo, only the ninja need to use one combo per effect. that make the whole combo system quite a pain to manage and not as fluid than dragoon and monk.

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Second of all, I don't really see how 1 new combo finisher is somehow a bigger pain than 2 new combo finishers., especially since nin's new combo finisher also alleviates the need to constantly reapply Huton, giving you freedom to perform extra offensive ninjutsu.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Snip...

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Are you familiar with Akiza? If so then meet the Akiza for the ninja population.