ishgard

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

See, my only issue with that is I don't think Ysayle is so easily manipulated by the Ascians, she's so far the only one in the story to have the Echo and not be a Scion, with also direct knowledge of Hydaelyn as well saying something along the lines of "Don't squander Mother's gift" to the PC. Honestly, I think she's quite aware of the Ascians and their purpose, especially after the whole Shiva incident, and probably distances herself when she can from them. Why would Aymeric call shenanigans on the events? Raubahn did and we know what happened to him (Where how plausible it is or not :P). Aymeric really doesn't have a reason to shove himself into the midst of an Ul'dah/Eorzea conflict, even the leaders of the other GC (Or well their men) didn't want that.

After we depose the Pope (If we do), which both Aymeric and Haurchefant like being men of faith and all, why wouldn't they betray us? Remember, Haurchefant didn't disobey the church during that Coerthas incident, he just thought that the one guy was framed, if he was an actual Dravanian cohort he'd want him at the bottom of the ravine like anyone else. They still hate dragons and Dravanians.

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What I meant is that Ysayle is Dravania's mouthpiece, or Nidhogg's if you want to get more specific, not the Ascians'. We've yet to actually speak to a dragon besides Midgardsormr, who probably does so telepathically, so it can be inferred the average dragon isn't capable of conversing with the Spoken races. The Ascians just gave Ysale the push to be the Dravanians' mortal speaker - their mouthpiece, so to speak. In regards to being manipulated by them, well... you know what they say about madness.

Anyway, Aymeric and Haurchefant are a bit ambiguous on whose side they could end up on, but I'd bank on them turning their backs on the Holy See given the right provocation. While neither of them outright break laws or disobey orders, they seem much more reasonable than the rest of the Ishgardian authorities, and judge people on merit and action over their words. Aymeric outright tells you so when you meet him, with something along the lines of this:

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Originally Posted by Aymeric

Do you know what sort of man becomes Knight-Commander of the Temple Knights? A man who comes from good stock (high birth). I did not, and yet here I am. I made it this far because I quickly learned to tell the difference between words, actions, and intentions.

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There's also Lucia, his second-in-command who isn't even of Ishgardian birth and yet he trusts her with his life. Aymeric has fought tooth and nail to get where he is and trusts people based on their actions over their words. So while he might subscribe to the Ishgardian state religion, like Estinen he seems to be one of the few with the strength to throw away everything he's believed in and accept the harsh truth that everything he's been brought up to believe is all a sinister lie. (Then again he might not be, since he'd be throwing away his life's work. Time will tell.)

Keyword here is seems. (I try to avoid dealing in absolutes unless I have verifiable facts to back them up.)

Pretty sure he'd call shenanigans on Teledji Adeledji's accusation because, as anyone who's spent time dealing with Ishgard knows, they barely have the manpower to keep the Dragonsong War going. There is no way they could spare the manpower to go conquer the rest of Eorzea, and doing so would not help evade the dragons' wrath. The exact accusation is that we were going to "charm [Ishgard] into invading [the rest of Eorzea]," but I'm still pretty sure he'd call shenanigans; that's one of the most bullshit accusations anyone could possibly make, something both Yda and Papalymo gladly point out.

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After we depose the Pope (If we do), which both Aymeric and Haurchefant like being men of faith and all, why wouldn't they betray us?

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Since when does being faithful translate into being a backstabbing guest-killer? Yes, some (many) Ishgardians are devoted to the point of being blind, but Aymeric and Haurchefant (and by extension Lord Fortemps, I assume) don't seem to be. I think they've shown us that if it was proven that their leader was corrupt to the point of needing to be removed, they would side with those fighting for the good of Ishgard as a whole. And that, right there, is the big thing about Aymeric: he's loyal to Ishgard, not just the Pope. It's just as things stand right now, they're basically one in the same.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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Ah alright, that makes things a bit more clear. I wonder if dragons can even talk to mortal people without the echo? Not sure which madness reference you're making though!


I think they are very amibiguous, but that ambiguity is exactly what makes me seem so perfect. Course I'm purely speculating here. Who knows, maybe he will end up going DRK on the Pope? :P

Honestly, that "tooth and nail to get where he is" seems to be one of the more curious parts, while he might have, I'd wonder if it wasn't the Ascians pulling the strings to allow it to occur. I mean, we've heard Aymeric is an exception, so it does seem a little odd that is just worked with him. It'd be neat to see what occurs either way, I'm just hoping he betrays us because I've just got some weird want to stomp him into the ground..

Oh good point, honestly if he did sit there, it would make more sense for us to rush to Ishgard as opposed to just hiding away in some grotto in Limsa Lominsa.

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Originally Posted by PocketFox

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I dunno, I'd figure if you killed the head of someone's religion, they'd probably be pretty mad at you. I mean, the reason why Haurchefant worked with you to clear his friends name wasn't because he saw anything wrong with pushing Dravanians off the cliff, he just thought that the guy in question wasn't a Dravanian. He has emphasized that while he's much more pragmatic than other Ishgard, he's still religious. Til Aymeric realizes that maybe being so devout isn't for the good of anyone, Ishgard included, I don't see him taking a "I'm going to betray the head of my religion because he's wrong!" route.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

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"Madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!"
-The Joker (Heath Ledger), The Dark Knight (2008)

The Asicans just gave Ysayle a little push, by teaching her to summon / channel Shiva, and sit back to watch the sparks fly.

I don't know if Aymeric is a DRK or will become one during the story. I wouldn't be surprised if he has some DRK contacts, since he probably needs to purge corruption in the ranks sometimes, but DRK don't have a central organization, so... /shrug

The implication with his above line is that he made it where he did through his own effort and intelligence, not noble standing or dirty play (though the latter leaves room for interpretation, Aymeric doesn't feel like a schemer). Regardless, I'd rather not have him betray us, because he feels to me like a model of what Ishgard should be. If we do end up having to fight and kill him, that's one fight I won't feel like a hero at the end of unless he goes off the deep end before that.

(I think a lot of people dislike him because Aymeric isn't exactly helpful when you first go to meet him, and never does anything for you without expecting something in return. It makes him come across as selfish, but there are circumstances preventing him from being outright altruistic, and what he asks in return is rarely a lot. Besides, Ishgard seriously owes us by the end of 2.x.)

I don't remember exactly how long the fake Inquisitor was chucking people off the cliff for or even if Haurchefant told us how long, but I seriously doubt he'd remorselessly toss Francel off the cliff himself if he actually were a heretic.

I don't think Aymeric or Haurchefant are as zealous as you think. For Haurchefant see above; Aymeric has to tell one such zealot to stop pursuing a fleeing heretic while we're trying to get to the Akh Afah Ampitheatre. He prioritizes the mission of stopping Shiva's summoning over the "kill heretics on sight no matter what, kill them kill them kill them" order from the Holy See; does that sound like the stupid zealots that make up Ishgardian infantry?

In the end what matters is whether or not they're more loyal to Ishgard (the state) or the Holy See (the Church). If some dark secret behind the Dragonsong War were uncovered, I seriously doubt Haurchefant would still support it. Jury's still out on Aymeric, but I want to believe in him.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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Oh! I don't watch movies, haha.

Wouldn't that be a fun cutscene and two part trial ? Fighting SUPER SHIVA EX and SUPER HALONE EX :P

He might, the massive sword that he's got does look pretty DRKish, but who knows, it could be a neat drop from his corpse for DRK >_>

Good point, he does portray a great example of what Ishgard ought to be and all. But the thing is, what would his opinions be the stuff that goes on with Witch's drop?

(I'm just Dravanian loving scum 'w' Plus Aymeric is way too pretty to live, he's gonna die, the question is if he's gonna die a hero or a villian..)

If I remember it was a good while, I could be wrong but I think I remember I've heard "Dozens" before, but I could be wrong. We know Francel wasn't the first though, and Haurchefant's first clue that something was up was that Francel's family has been loyal to Ishgard for generations iirc. The issue here is I'm fairly sure Francel wasn't the first, and if it weren't for our intervention, he wouldn't have been the last.

Good point as well, he does seem a good bit more pragmatic, but were not too sure on his limitations of his pragmatism. What happens in the case where there's not more pressing concerns such as Shiva and there's Dravanian Heretics afoot?

What about you, Aymeric? What's it going to be? Loyalty to your country, or loyalty to the Holy See? Your country, or your old Pope? The mission, or your beliefs? Your duty to your Templar Knights, or your personal feelings? You don't know the truth yet. But sooner or later you'll have to choose. (Heh, playing MGS again >_>)

Honestly If Aymeric and house Fortemps aren't our allies in Ishgard, I'm not sure who would be. Ishgard is clearly going to be an ally for us. If we were enemies of the state openly I don't see us living in the city which we will be doing since it has the zones marketboard and will house various important NPCs like Rowana. I seriously doubt this will be a Dragons=good, Ishgard=bad story. I suspect we will in the end see both sides are being played. Nidhogg is strongly being presented as an enemy.

Also being Faithful doesn't mean being blind. They are faithful to Halone, not the Holy See. Its the principles of Halone which would guide their actions which actually comes up in the Main Scenario when Aymeric is asked why he doesn't pursue the heretics directly.

I'm also pretty convinced that Iceheart has been played. I doubt she knows a great deal more than we do about the Ascians. We are after all the chosen champion. I think her calling is more related to closing the breach between dragon and man. In fact I suspect her understanding of this comes from the echo. It would have enabled her to witness truths about the past. That doesn't mean she has the full picture and the fact she chose to summon a primal, something that is exactly the wrong choice to achieve her stated goals, means that she has been manipulated. She has never shown any indication that she felt she was wrong summoning a Primal. Quite the contrary. She was angry at us for getting in her way.

Well, it's complicated. While we are entering the war on Ishgard's side, and both Aymeric and House Fortemps are definitely our allies, Middy implies there's a dark secret behind the war. What secret that is, and how people react to it, could easily turn everything on its head. I seriously doubt we'll end up enemies of the state in Ishgard too, so my best theory right now is that Aymeric and House Fortemps might go apostate and we'll end up deposing Archbishop Thordan VII (Ishgard Pope). Nidhogg is definitely going to be antagonistic, though.

I agree, both sides are being played against each other, and ending the war without destroying either side is paramount.

Anyway yeah, Ysayle was pretty clearly just being played by the Ascians. While she has the Echo, Nabriales pretty much tells you outright he taught her the summoning ritual, and it doesn't make sense to summon a Primal if she's wholly on our side. From the look of things we'll reconcile our differences in Heavensward, but I at least want to bop her on the head for being so damn stupid with the whole Shiva affair.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Anyway yeah, Ysayle was pretty clearly just being played by the Ascians. While she has the Echo, Nabriales pretty much tells you outright he taught her the summoning ritual, and it doesn't make sense to summon a Primal if she's wholly on our side. From the look of things we'll reconcile our differences in Heavensward, but I at least want to bop her on the head for being so damn stupid with the whole Shiva affair.

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I doubt the real Shiva wanted any of this to happen.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I doubt the real Shiva wanted any of this to happen.

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If Dragonsong's lyrics really do hint at the truth behind the war... no.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If Dragonsong's lyrics really do hint at the truth behind the war... no.

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You said that you agreed or not? Im didnt understand xD