Sooo are SMN and SCH being separated?

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Just remember that "no base class" could just mean that they didn't create a base class for Dark Knight, Machinist, and Astrologian like they did with Rogue for Ninja. Dark Knight could still role off of War, Machinist could role off of Archer, and Astrologian could role off of Conjurer.

I think the only problem they really had with Sch and Smn is that they are two different roles for one class, where as Dark Knight is a tank the same as War, Machinist is a DPS the same as Archer, and Astrologian is a healer the same as Conjurer.

If I had my way SMN would be a melee mage that worked like Yuna in Dissidia, or the gameplay of Folklore.

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No, it couldn't. They said "no base class" not "no NEW base class". The 3 new jobs literally don't have a class. It's the job, period, with the requirement to get them being to be level 50, clear the ARR story, get into Ishgard, and get them quests. It doesn't matter if you're a level 50 DRG with nothing else, you could open up those 3 new jobs.

The class > job system is bad, no matter how you look at it. The 2 jobs from one class concept is even worse, and brings way too many problems. With SMN and SCH, the problem is different roles. But if they shared the same role, the problem would then become, are these really different enough to merit a second job? For example, they would have easily made THF and NIN come out of ROG, and give THF a different style (maybe make it a trap job?), but since they didn't, one has to assume they either aren't smart enough to have thought of it, or they thought it wouldn't be different enough to be worth it.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

SE will add enough job abilities after 50 to separate the Summoner and Scholar from each other.

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This will diversify them more, which isn't the same as "separating" them. You would still have core problems like SMN having battle raise, and folks (including apparently the dev team) feeling that's good enough to merit SMN being weaker than most any other job and not giving them any really unique support options. Any support type action SMN can use can be done by someone else, namely BLM or SCH. Even melee dps have actions that can support the party that are unique to them. Battle raise on a dps is literally the only thing they got going on for support, and SMNs likely would rather dps than try to carry terribad players through old content. Certainly battle raise isn't helping with hardcore content, because once people start dying, you've already lost.

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

Certainly battle raise isn't helping with hardcore content, because once people start dying, you've already lost.

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I'll hate to be in a progression group with you.

Sure, BLM can use the same 'support' skills as SMN, but SMN has the advanced traits. Supervirus, Enhanced e4ae. SMN and SCHs also have the only access to the status Disease; and a SMN is more likely to be using Miasma then your SCH. You may as well say that all of SCH's support skills can be used by WHM as well; they can shield, heal, virus etc.

The reason why SMN is weaker than most other jobs is because their SUMMONS deal damage as well. If the SMN himself did as much damage as any other job, and still had a summon that did damage, no one would play any other DPS job. SMN isn't perfect as it is; there are a lot of problems with it. But you're nitpicking at things that aren't that big of an issue for SMN.

I want more pet-focused abilities. I want more reason to use a summon rather than Garuda. I want a better AoE capacity than Miasma II, Shadow Flare and Bane, the last which isn't even full AoE, but pseudo AoE. I want more diverse stats that I can choose from. There are far more bigger problems than just a lack of 'unique utility' that plagues SMN.

It was just a theory I had and one I had seen others suggesting. Personally I've always felt summoner was designed wrong anyway. Outside of one or two pet abilities you don't really do much with your summon. Basically the only thing seperating you from a scholar is that you can't heal / shield. Your traits are the same your debuffs do the same. You get Fester and a 5 min Enkindle that does as much damage as crit-ed melee attack.

I personally feel summoner needs to be reworked fromt he ground up to be more summonerish and to have it's own uniqe ness. Monk and Ninja is fast DPS, Dragoon and Black Mage tend to do burst damage, Summoner is the Damage over time job with Ruin 2 it's only burn potential.

But hey they say they are doing major changes to it so who knows how it will work in the future.

From an amateur translation of the Nico Super FATE Day 1 seems they worked on the SMN and we'll see a big change in 3.0. I guess they somehow fixed the SCH/SMN shared bonus point too as it is a well known problem.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Reading comprehension . . . it really is a wonderful thing.

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Sarcasm doesn't work well on the internet, because, hopefully you already know, not everybody speak English as first language. Next time you want to say something, just say it. :)


Bottom line, it's an existing problem with no indication of a fix coming. I can rephrase my complaint, but the end result will be the same:

I want the SMN and SCH to have separate physical bonus points. That's all.

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

The class > job system is bad, no matter how you look at it. The 2 jobs from one class concept is even worse, and brings way too many problems.

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That's wrong. It's just Final Fantasy's version of what they had in FF1 that they cribbed from Wizardy. In Wizardry you were supposed to upgrade to Elite Jobs from the base classes and take a few cross-class skills with you. FFXIV's version is barely a shadow of how this works. In Wiz, you could take -ANY- skill, not just the select few in the class and even fewer in the Job.

The only reason SMN/SCH is kinda broken is because all the DPS power has to come from the pet, and the pet AI is way too dumb. If it doesn't come from the pet on SMN, then SCH is more powerful than other DPS. But the healing pets are either too powerful (letting the SCH ignore healing and just DPS) or too weak and too slow (in harder content.)

Like the way to fix this is to really just come up with an Expert/Specialist Job that replaces all the base class and job skills (eg White Wizard instead of White Mage) when equipped.

I'm interested to see what changes are being wrought to Summoner. Of all the jobs in the game, Summoner is the one which least feels like its namesake. Most, if not all, the remaining jobs keep the key elements of their profession but Egi avatars are unimpressive and feel tacked-on rather than being a key element to gameplay.

I want to see the summons take a more focal role in the game, and gain some true strength. The Summoner should rely on their avatar, not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

If I had my way SMN would be a melee mage that worked like Yuna in Dissidia, or the gameplay of Folklore.

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Melee mage should be Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Hell, they could go full on Yuna from Dissida 012

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

If I had my way SMN would be a melee mage that worked like Yuna in Dissidia, or the gameplay of Folklore.

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While Yuna is one of my favorites to use in Duodecim next to Prishe and Jecht, I rather like the idea of SMN being a pet job than the way Yuna plays in Dissidia. I wish the summons were bigger (which they may be in 3.0), but I kinda like how they put summoning into the lore of the game. The traditional summons are Primals in this game, lore-wise it makes sense why a single person can't summon Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Shiva, Ramuh, etc. at will.

On the subject of melee mages though... RED MAGE PLEASE!