Yoshi P: Please Consider a Better Raiding System in 3.0 - Beyond Statics

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

You not thinking it through fully. One person can make ALL the difference as they can see and point out what they are doing wrong mechanics wise, explain how to do it and push forwards for the clear.

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Yes, and that one person will still have to deal with the learning curve of 7 other people who may not have any experience or very little. For example, one of our raiders in my static has his alt with us and his main with another. T12 is brand new to us, he's cleared it. Multiple times. We've still been stuck on it for two weeks now (we only raid three times a week, btw). He doesn't make any mistakes, one of the other seven always does. We wipe. One person isn't enough to say that with one person, an entire chest should be taken away.

I stand by what I said, one person's knowledge or experience can't outweigh the mistakes of seven others in Final coil.

From my point of view what we need is a diferent gear for the diferent endgame game content so each player can decide wich endgame suits them for example we can turn trials and primals into 4 man content wich give you resistance dependant gear to lower the damage recived to clear it more easy, the full party content could be built on base to the secondary stats giving the members focused roles limiting their adaptability and the 24 man content could give a gear based on primary stats increasing its adaptability but limiting them to be to focused

its late around here so ill explain it in detail tomorrow night /wave

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Yes, and that one person will still have to deal with the learning curve of 7 other people who may not have any experience or very little. For example, one of our raiders in my static has his alt with us and his main with another. T12 is brand new to us, he's cleared it. Multiple times. We've still been stuck on it for two weeks now (we only raid three times a week, btw). He doesn't make any mistakes, one of the other seven always does. We wipe. One person isn't enough to say that with one person, an entire chest should be taken away.

I stand by what I said, one person's knowledge or experience can't outweigh the mistakes of seven others in Final coil.

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And they would be going knowing that. That one person can say to the other who is failing that you should Zig instead of Zag ^_^

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Originally Posted by yorjen

From my point of view what we need is a diferent gear for the diferent endgame game content so each player can decide wich endgame suits them

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You know in 3.0 there will be 2 versions of end game raid? One will be about (Yoshis words) as difficult as post Echo coil. The other version will be harder than Savage. From what I can ascertain with what was said, you will ned to gear up frmo the first tier (for want of a better term) to be able to clear the 2nd teir. Chances are lockout on the first tier will be a lot more leniant than the 2nd tier.

More than likely only difference between the two tiers will be difficulty and a higher tier of gear dropping from the harder version. Everything regarding the story will be in the lower difficulty version.

Just take voidwatch from xi. 18 man content, doesn't lock you out for trying with 17 or less, good mechanics in fights, everyone gets their own loot.

If I ever see meaningful content repeat the horrible 1.0 dungeon loot system, I will quit right then and there. It was terrible and there's a reason why it was thrown out. Lockouts aren't inherently bad if they are designed to be flexible and promote cooperation. I think the change in 2.45 was a step in the right direction, but there really needs to be a system in place that allows for people to help others without diminished rewards.

Perhaps they coul just include tokens for people that have already cleared. For example, you're in the Server First team, clear the content and the 2 chests drop and everyone gets one token. Later you join in with another group trying to clear. Chests still get reduced to 1 chest with 1-4 cleared members and none with more than that BUT they all still get the clear token. There would still be a one item per week lockout, and people helping out can still lot if they hadn't obtained an item yet. These tokens will take a minimum of 10 to trade in for a gear piece up to maybe 30 to be traded in for a raid item of your choice. If all 8 players have completed the content, it cannot be run.

This way it promotes the community more, and helping others still helps you (only much more slowly, but also more guaranteed) and it promotes helping and carrying people through in order to get those tokens. This will make it worthwhile to help people out instead of selling content clears for gil, the reward is actually already in the loot mechanics.

I enjoy how raiding is right now. I just want them to use a token system instead of random drops. It can be really annoying, especially if you're competitive, getting gear that nobody can make use of.

I like how shiva has it... even if you don't get a drop you get a token that you can use to upgrade the drop that you do get. I would put it on about the same. Token item +1chest+%chance of another chest so one guranteed drop and one % drop and the token item - and if it sticks with 4 raids in a set that would be 4 tokens per week - I'd say 20 tokens would be required per piece.

Absolutely agree with OP. No system is perfect, but the 1.0 system was far, far better than what we have now and could be made better with some very minor tweaks.

These things must all happen for this to work, as they all play into the actual system:

• Guaranteed loot drops must go. They are the core reason for needing the ridiculous caps and lock-outs. You can limit the flow of items in your world through statistical means like every other MMO that has ever been.
• The token system needs to be reworked to augment the loot drop system, not create a completely separate looting system with own set of rules. This is a very simple concept. Whenever a chest is opened and if it spits out gear(we are going on the concept that chests will not longer 100% drop gear), players cast lots. Lot winners are rewarded with the item, the remaining players present are auto-rewarded with a token. Of course it's entirely possible now for chests to only reward a set of tokens to every person if we also apply the first above concept.
• All gear can be exchanged for their respective token. This will prevent any issues of forcing players to take something they don't need as well as prevent any gear from hitting the floor.
• Remove all artificial lockouts and weekly tome caps. They won't be necessary under the current system. S-E can easily control the rate of items entering the game though statistical drop rate and the token cost of gear based on the rate players can ideally collect tokens by finishing content. Special or important items can still also be specially controlled through weekly quests just as they currently are.

The beauty of the above system is it can be applied to both end-game content as well as the general dungeons. It has many advantages over the current system including:

• A fairer distribution of loot that is actually far less at the mercy of the RNG. You might not get a drop in a run, but you are guaranteed something after X amount of runs. This is a far better solution for anyone that hates RNG. The current system punishes you far more with RNG that the above system would even without a 100% item drop rate.
• Allows players to break out of their 8-man statics.
• Give more freedom to the players to do the content they want, not just the content they are allowed to for the week.
• Conceptually reduces the current tomestone grind in general dungeons. Yes, you will still grind for tokens, however token rewards would have a small chance (~10-20%) to drop directly from a chest, giving you the chance to effectively reduce the required runs to gear up something. This change will also make general dungeon runs far more rewarding and interesting for people rather than knowing exactly how many runs of dungeons you will need every week to get some item. The fact that this number is static every week is the key reason the grind become so monotonous.
• And what I consider most important: Bring back the importance of loot chests in dungeons. Finally people can be excited again to beat a boss and open those chests rather than just being the trash dispensers they currently are in the way of getting the intangible tomestone number up higher that comes from nothing but a text message after one defeats a boss.

The only real disadvantage this system would have over the current is it would allow dedicated players to farm as much as they want, potentially allowing them to push ahead of less dedicated players. Frankly I don't really see this as an issue as this game has no real player to player competition. It's not like better geared players can deny lesser geared players any content so I don't really see the necessity to control this as much as the current system attempts to do. Plus as mentioned, you can still control this to a degree with proper statistical drop systems.