NTO - New Tank Order ... And our manifesto.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

That can be true of any class/role though. But tanks tend to be
taken more seriously.

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I was planning on mentioning that but I ran out of characters.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

-snip-

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No YOU didn't read the OP. It wasn't that the tank wasn't holding hate it was that he, and I quote, "refused to mark any mobs for priority simply because that was not his job although people were clearly not attacking the same targets". Never once did he say the tank wasn't holding hate he simply said that the DPS were attacking out of order and the tank didn't feel like it was his job to tell the DPS how to do their job. If you read the OP's other post he still does NOT say that the tank was losing hate. We were entirely on topic with our conversation about what is and isn't a tank's job in regards to players who don't know what they are doing. The only thing close to what you are talking about is that the tank was being rude and was typing in a fight.

We will be your shield. - Yes

We will charge first into the fight. - Yes

We will take damage instead of you. - Yes

We will protect your life as if it was our own. - Yes

We will not get mad at you for screwing it up by mistake. - Only if you learn from your mistakes

We will provoke the enemy so they attack us instead of you. - Yes

We will interrupt the skills that would be "harmful" to our party. - Yes, just need a spelling correction

We will take time to explain the fights to those who are new around here. - No, there is a site for this, it's called Youtube, there are guides all over the place for the fights, and I'm not going to waste the time of 6 other people who probably know the fight to sit down and explain in words what really needs to be seen with your eyes.

We will mark the targets when "necessary" so the fight is smoother and easier for new players. - Yes, just correct the spelling mistake please.

We will repeat the failed fight with you and encourage you to do better instead of yelling at you. - As long as you learn from your mistakes.

We will teach new tanks not only the mechanics and tanking, but we will also remind them to be friendly. - I will teach new tanks who are willing to listen. Otherwise, I WANT them to have a miserable time playing my role so that my role remains in high demand, and I can play with competent, worth while tanks when I'm not tanking.

Also, what dungeon were you running where the kill order of trash was so important? I get that it's all "attack my target that I am focusing on because I may lose agro on the mob you're attacking if you don't" and stuff, but if he was maintaining agro on all the targets, then I don't really see an issue with not having a kill order. Sure, some fights (Usually boss fights) need to kill things rather quickly, or in a certain order, but not many are, and those that are usually are very late in the game, where there are more competent people playing (normally).

I have a lowbie tank (i97 atm) but mostly play bard or ninja. I think by the time someone has jobs high enough to push the now-removed ilvl cap, they should know how to play their job (hopeful thinking, I know). For those with no 50 or new players, I think marking could help and like most tanks here, if I see someone struggling with choosing/engaging mobs I'll mark one with a '1' just to help. But for all the people in poetics gear, I think it isn't needed. We can usually take the hits and kill it fast, the healer can throw a regen on us if needed, or in extreme cases we can just switch targets and let tank reacquire via their aggro tools.

With the improvements to Flash and CoS, PLDs shouldn't have issues with aggro unless grossly out geared. I've had PLD with lower ilvl (i100 or so) pull almost all of SC up to the bear, and not mark anything at all, and we just burned everything down. I took hate a few times, but it didn't matter b/c the mob was usually dead right after. Skilled and experienced players shouldn't need marking -- new to the dungeon or newer players might. All situational I'd say ^^

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Originally Posted by Zorya

Simply putting [1] mark on something that should be killed first helps a lot when everyone is attacking it's own target.

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At what point is it the players responsibility to learn how to play? As DPS you can learn which mobs need to die right away and or you could learn to use your keybinding that selects your targets target. I am not saying marking has no uses but in the case of 1 mob .... you really should learn to use the tools already given to you on top of learning the content you are running. If you see a mob that cast abilities that need to be dodged a lot while one just sits there it is usually a good idea to kill the one making your tank move around and preventing him from keeping constant activity on all the other mobs which will cause him to lose threat, while this is not always the case it is most of the time and there is common sense which should be applied.

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Originally Posted by DSN

At what point is it the players responsibility to learn how to play? As DPS you can learn which mobs need to die right away and or you could learn to use your keybinding that selects your targets target. I am not saying marking has no uses but in the case of 1 mob .... you really should learn to use the tools already given to you on top of learning the content you are running. If you see a mob that cast abilities that need to be dodged a lot while one just sits there it is usually a good idea to kill the one making your tank move around and preventing him from keeping constant activity on all the other mobs which will cause him to lose threat, while this is not always the case it is most of the time and there is common sense which should be applied.

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Can I add to this by reminding people that play this game something? IF you play this game, you have an internet connection. IF you have an internet connection, you can probably access Youtube. Even PS3 and PS4 can access youtube. IF you can access youtube, you can watch a video guide. IF you come into a new dungeon and say "Lol, I'm a newb, IDK what I to do here, help me, I haven't watched a video or anything" then my first and only response is this "Help yourself before asking me for help, because I'm not putting in all the effort to teach when you haven't put in any effort to learn first."

Edit: If what I am running is an entirely new dungeon with no guides what-so-ever out there, then chances are, I don't know all the mechanics either. But in the off chance I do know them, and this is the ONLY time I will do this, I will teach them. Otherwise, take a hint...

http://www.thehanoa.org/css_pirobox/...-stitch-i3.gif

And in the alternate case of alternate mechanics being easier than what are in videos out there, then sit down...

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/54169296.jpg

I macro mark 1 to Shield Lob and Tomahawk that way I can mark my primary target without taking up any extra time. Because those skills are on GCD, I can toggle the 1 on and off by using the skills in between CDs. I don't do this all the time but it's a very simple way to communicate with my party quickly - "Hey let's kill this first."

That being said, it's equally easy for healers/DPS to watch hate bars (and as someone else said, best damage is done by dotting multiple targets anyway). Equally easy to watch what the tank is targetting and mob hp. What gets me is that somehow marking became the tank's job. It's totally fine by me but I'd have no problem with a DPS marking as long as it didn't take up time. I can just as easily have hate on what they're attacking as they can attack what I have hate on. It's a team game, folks. The best groups work together.

I always study before a new fight, and I don't think you should hop into DF assuming people will teach you or carry you. However, for ME, written guides are much more useful and video guides are basically useless before I've gotten some experience with the content. Plus video guides are usually full of misinformation since they always predate echo, new gear and nerfs, and often don't have the most efficient strat being used. Of course blind runs are the most fun, but you'll need a preformed party for that.

I often mark as DPS or heals if needed and the tank doesn't mind but the tank's in the best position to do it. And as mentioned before, marking is rarely done for aggro management once you've figured out how to manage aggro and are geared on par with your party, it has other uses. And as a side note for the discussion on newbies, it's rarely a persons inability or lack of foreknowledge of a fight because they didn't study that causes them to mess up (though it does happen), it's anxiety and a lack of confidence, often brought on by the types of attitudes seen by a few in this thread. I know someone who was scared off of leveling her DPS because of a bad experience in an early dungeon, made her husband do evey dungeon after that until SV where she'd only run with friends, took forever and a day to hit 50 and is now a raid leader and a badass DPS, healer and tank.and having lost out on all that early experience, it wasn't without some super-newbie mistakes.

When ever we get new stuf (Duties, Primals, coils, etc.) I am usually in it the same day or a few shortly after. I go on tank and I go in bind as a bat. I wan't to learn firsthand how things go, what mechanics to deal with etc., figure things out for myself. I would say 98% of the time I am 100% successful.

I agree that with content that has been out for a while, that has video / written guides, should be studied up on, I would argue that not everyone learns that way. I understand this. Watching and reading can help you to prepare for things, as you will recognize them as things progress, but you have to do it to get it.

Ex: Garuda EX (after patch 2.4 release) - New player - My first time, no idea what to do......(many resources on the fight that should have been used before Q'ing up)
Shiva EX (after patch 2.4 release) - All players (mostly) - First time, let's learn this shiz.