Done with FFXIV until RDM comes along...

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

If they increase damage done by a greater number then the dps role that they filling, they are mandatory.
If they reduce damage taken by a great amount then a healer can heal, they are mandatory.
If they can do both, they are mandatory.

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you're thinking too much in binary mode.

buffers can also do equal job than a dps (buff the other dps enough to make up the loss of a dps player, or add other abilities to compensate the loss, like bard have right now to compensate their sub-par dps).

A support giving a +15% dps per player (you're losing around 40% dps by bringing him over a dps, or 5% dps overall) but having a few useful abilities to make up the loss could work. Not OP so not mandatory. Sub par overall dps so skipable. Usefulness improved so that the dps loss isn't that much of a trouble.


That's just a bad example made on the spot

Mmmm... I can't understand OP's desire really. I mean, I do like the idea of a swashbuckling mage with Amon's hat but really, I don't understand.

RDMs are sorely needed in FFXIV... Because Spell Speed is useless. This is strange because from what I'm understanding, you want a class in the game because it will... fulfill the use of a single stat. Which BLMs probably happily stack, and is arguably a decent stat for spell casters, and it's twin for the physical side of things. Note: Spell SPD and Skill SPD use is still debatable.

That there is no class with the support capabilities of a RDM is a very strange thing to me as well. I find Bard's singing songs for a boost in TP/MP regen awesome. I also find Protect, Regen, healing, and shields wonderful, interesting bits of support. So I don't understand what it is you actually want. Every class can use debuffs to support each other to some effect as well. So what form of support do you have in mind? No really, I'm wondering. And no spells like Haste, that would make RDM a "must-have" and so top-pick for all team compositions.

And are you really telling me that the spell Regen does not... REGEN?! Le gasp!

With the exception of the last bit, I'm really, seriously puzzled by what it is you're saying other than you're not playing the swashbuckling mage sporting the spiffiest hat of spiffiness and that you're leaving. Mind clarifying what it is exactly that you want?

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Originally Posted by eodharbinger

Anyway, sad to say it, after leveling nearly every class to 50 & nearly 100ilvl across 3 chars

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Ha. How about you finish one of those classes with their cross class skills before you tell us what this game needs. Splitting your classes over different characters is a handicap in this game.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

buffers can also do equal job than a dps (buff the other dps enough to make up the loss of a dps player, or add other abilities to compensate the loss, like bard have right now to compensate their sub-par dps).

A support giving a +15% dps per player (you're losing around 40% dps by bringing him over a dps, or 5% dps overall) but having a few useful abilities to make up the loss could work. Not OP so not mandatory. Sub par overall dps so skipable. Usefulness improved so that the dps loss isn't that much of a trouble.

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Except then they're worthless in party content and either worthless or mandatory in raids. It has been tried before and has failed.

That said, bard is a DPS with cooldowns and utility, not really "support".

TBH....in my mind, in FF11 SE told me RDM was a Magic-sword master, so I started playing RDM with this wrong idea and eventually realised...^^;

RDM was ( 2/3(WHM&BLM) + 1/3GLA) , he uses the EN-series magic sword on himself and buff single party member, debuff single enemy.
There were a lot of buffs for yourself and usually the first buff would expire and go off right after you had just casted the last buff on yourself.
There were a lot of debuffs for single enemy and usually the trash mobs would have died before you had casted the last debuff, and the bosses would resist most of the debuffs.
RDM was a no one wanted member until he got Refresh (single member MP regen), then every RDM complained they had became a refresh machine.

And thusly Kuwagami brings us unto the Bizzaro MMO-world; Where players like to do inefficient actions for the sake of the community.

Now to put some background to that. I know where you are coming from, I do understand your arguments, because I used to have the same ideas. But when I moved up into harder raiding and started to watch the top guilds; reading their blogs and watching streams, I learned a single solitary fact.

MMO Players are not gamers in the normal sense. We don't play games, we play spreadsheets with a very pretty GUI.

What does this have to do with Support classes? The top level players spend a exorbitant amount of time doing theory-crafting, so much that "hardcore" players may spend more time outside the game theory-crafting then a "casual" player may spend just having fun in game. This math determines how they play the game. This in turn effects game balance on the meta-level. Look no further then how quickly Ramuh-Ex with Titan-Egi was embraced by the community. This creates a host of issues that we have seen on these very boards.

If they increase damage done by a greater number then the dps role that they filling, they are mandatory.
If they fail to increase the damage done by a greater amount then the dps role they are filling, they are benched
If they reduce damage taken by a great amount then a healer can heal, they are mandatory.
If the cannot reduce damage by a sufficient amount to reduce the numbers of healers, they are benched.
If they can do both, they are mandatory.
If they fail at both, they are benched.

The moment a Support job breaks one of the conditions I set, it comes mandatory or abandoned.

It is a binary view because it's a binary decision. Either a job is taken to a raid or it has to ride pine. You cannot take part of job to raid and leave some of it behind, it's all or nothing.

I know my chances of convincing the OP and others are slim. I accept this.

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

What does this have to do with Support classes? The top level players spend a exorbitant amount of time doing theory-crafting, so much that "hardcore" players may spend more time outside the game theory-crafting then a "casual" player may spend just having fun in game. This math determines how they play the game. This in turn effects game balance on the meta-level. Look no further then how quickly Ramuh-Ex with Titan-Egi was embraced by the community. This creates a host of issues that we have seen on these very boards.

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This is the sad truth of MMO design. And yes, Titan-egi was embraced because it allowed people to not deal with one of Ramuh's mechanics; instead of seeing it for the broken tactic that it was people tried to defend it either because they wanted to stick it to tank players or because they were being of the cool alternative crowd that doesn't follow intended design, man.

As far as support, the funny thing about your conditions is that support ALWAYS breaks one of them. To make a mezzer worthwhile it has to be able to notably hinder raid bosses; likewise if the mezzer is not overly effective it gets benched. If you make a mana battery they instantly become mandatory, especially when mana/MP is a tight commodity (nevermind the ruination it brings to the class involved). You can't build a support entirely out of regens/HoTs, which then leads to them touching the two aforementioned aspects. And god help you if the support is designed around spammable buffs; you're either mandatory because your buffs make that much of a difference or are useless because your buffs don't make enough of a difference. From a design perspective its an absolute balancing nightmare. That's not even getting into who gets pigeonholed into that role.

This game needs a lot more to it before they can put RDM in it. The core of the game and battle system needs to be fixed imho. It is extremely dull atm. No bosses can have any status effects on them, we only have very boring stats, etc.

Even if they add rdm you may not like it and quit anyways. Like how i want samurai but i know when it's added wont be anything like how i think it would be.

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Originally Posted by Meier

This game needs a lot more to it before they can put RDM in it. The core of the game and battle system needs to be fixed imho. It is extremely dull atm. No bosses can have any status effects on them, we only have very boring stats, etc.

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Red mages aren't buffers or debuffers. They are a jack of all trades that have moderate skill in white (defensive), black (offensive) and martial combat. But that sort of class won't work in most MMOs because parties don't need jack of all trades characters, they need specialists that will accel in their role. The only time you can step outside of this is if those classes get some sort of special ability that's not available elsewhere. In FFXI that was refresh, so RDMs just became refresh bots, which is a stupid.

If RDM is put into FFXIV, they will need to specialize, either DPS, Tank or Healer. In doing so, they should at least be able to mix 2 of the 3 disciplines they are known for (white magic, black magic, swordplay) in order to accomplish that role.

There's a number of ways to accomplish that. Support DPS (lower DPS with strong support abilities such as restore TP and MP, like the BRD) is an easy fit. Could also work as a tank that mixes white magic to mitigate and self heal while using melee + black magic to build threat. Even heals could work extremely well to preserve the RDMs 3 core disciplines. As a healer they can rely primarily on white magic, and use cleric stance from CNJ to cast black magic from range. However, RDM would also get a fencer stance. Fencer stance would function similar to cleric stance but would swap STR & MND. This would allow the RDM to use melee abilities that would be stronger than their black magic. The only drawback would be that they would have to be in melee range to attack with these abilities (not always the best place for a healer).