How "Vote to Dismiss" is designed encourages abuse.

Before you complain about "vote dismiss" system.

Could you explain first, why many people want to use "vote dismiss" or abuse this system? What happen there before this? What was the original reason why they want to?

How about fix problem at their source?

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Originally Posted by Bladeglory

You can argue all you like about the human condition and morality, but it's pretty much a given that there's going to be a set of people that raise hell. I feel like Square Enix hasn't been accounting for that group very well.

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Actually, I think SE may be handling the hellraisers in perhaps the best way possible. As the system currently stands, it's currently possible to abuse it by kicking someone for a reason other than the accepted reasons for kicking someone as well as by forcing yourself into situations where you cannot be kicked before being the troll. The situation in which a kicked person can immediately rejoin is less an abuse and more an oversight, even if it does allow for someone kicked for being offline to return to the dungeon after getting their connection back.

SE's current solution is to let the players deal with this through submitting harassment reports. Why? Because while adding restrictions to the system to prevent these sorts of behavior will certainly cull it somewhat, it will also complicate the system for the people who are trying to use it for the correct reasons. As it stands, we currently have an easy to use system that does exactly what it is supposed to do but allows for these specific situations that make people upset, and perhaps a couple more that nobody has mentioned yet. The right balance just might be present here.

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Originally Posted by Alise

Could you explain first, why many people want to use "vote dismiss" or abuse this system? What happen there before this? What was the original reason why they want to?

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Short answer: trolls.

More properly, vote kick gives a way for players to deal with trolls attempting to ruin their gameplay experience. Suppose some player partway through a dungeon decides to just go sit in a corner and refuse to do anything. The players can't compel him to do anything. They have no recourse; one person has just destroyed all the progress the other three people made in that dungeon and their only option is to wait out the clock, abandon (if the troll came with a partner this is not possible) or to have one of the "good" players suffer a penalty (30 minute lockout). If there were no vote kick system there wouldn't be a way to deal with such people.


Additionally, there are times when one person suddenly is pulled away from the game and cannot return within the time window. (Emergency, power outage, internet blackout, etc.) Yoshida addressed this problem specifically in one letter and agreed it wasn't fair to the other three, which is why AFK is its own separate category in the votekick.

The simple answer this all boils down to? There is no "fixing it at the source" unless you were to somehow fix humankind. And while that's occasionally a rather theraputic thing to imagine, I don't think most of humanity would appreciate it.

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That only answer part of my question about why would they need to have this system.

Now another part of my question is that 'Why would OP experience such many use of abort button"?

-Is it because three people use their best gear, whereas one person use spirit bond gear?
-It is because some players play too suck that could ruin whole party?
-It is because someone troll?

Come on~, there must be a reason why people need to abuse this system.
-It is simply because majority not want to play with certain person in party?
-If so, then who in the party that make other people dislike?
-If you can actually see that which person caused the trouble, then you should know the reason why?
-If you know the reason then please fix it from that source then?

This was what I meant on previous post.

I don't know why the confusion. Some examples (probably mostly reiterated from OP):

- The penalty timer for voluntarily leaving an instance is TOO LONG. This indirectly encourages abuse of the Vote Dismiss feature. People might be willing to eat a 15 minute timer, but not often a 30 minute timer. So people will troll the group or afk and waste their time, forcing them to Vote Dismiss them. This is unequivocally bad. Why is SE so desperate for folks to stay in instances when they don't want to be, to the point of making you eat the timer even for pre-made parties? Sometimes you get matched with folks who simply can't succeed. SE wants them to get carried, I guess? Well, not happening... People will just afk/troll until dismissed, wasting time.

- You can't Vote Dismiss at certain times, which allows folks to abuse the system, like purposefully locking themselves out of a long/difficult fight, and forcing rest of alliance to do the fight for them, while still retaining rights to lot loot if group succeeds, even though they did nothing. At the very least there needs to be an exception to the "can't Vote Dismiss while fighting" to account for people who are not in the fight (locked selves out of fight intentionally).

While we're at it, there's another flaw:

- You can't do anything about folks outside your own party when matched into alliance content. You will often find an entire party trying to troll everyone in Crystal Tower (LotA/ST). There's no recourse for this other than Vote to Abandon, which would be really annoying if for example the troll party is forcing wipes on Amon or Xande.

If you're wondering why we need Vote to Dismiss to begin with... I think that's already been explained, too. It's a necessary system, but SE is trying too hard to force you to stay in an instance, and not giving your countermeasures for certain troll situations.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Second you have newbies and veterans. Don't pester the newbies for not knowing the fight.

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You left out veteran players telling other veteran players how to play x class while being on y class because "they know it better", despite being on y class. Yelling, "Do x!" when I'm halfway through doing x already without you yelling for me to do it, then going, "Oh, it's this person's fault for not doing x when I said." is one of the MOST annoying things I get from toxic players. There is no working as a team with these players, as they have it in their heads that they are better than everyone else and nothing could POSSIBLY be their fault, it's always someone else's fault. I would really like to see SE implement what WoW did where if you block/report someone, you don't get queued with them EVER AGAIN.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

The real problem is instant gratification and duty finder.

Its a vicious circle. In 1.0 there was no duty finder and no need for vote kick. But everyone wants instant pairing for duty with no community and then complained there was no vote kick. Now there's a vote kick and everyone is complaining that its being abused.

Its being abused because Duty Finder killed community. Everyone happy now?

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I actually think it would be pretty cool if they tried out a couple of servers without duty finder. I would move to it...

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Originally Posted by Hewenttojared

I actually think it would be pretty cool if they tried out a couple of servers without duty finder. I would move to it...

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I would love it if they did this. I, of course, would never go to any of those servers, but it would create options for those who do want to. They should either offer free transfers to those servers, OR choose large servers and offer free transfers off for those of us who aren't interested.

Of course, there might be crying about not enough people wanting to play on some server or another, but that would really be a great testimony to whether people want or don't want the system.

Wow, that's kinda lame. Terrible luck even. I've been kicked from a dungeon about three times for SB'ng on my DRG. I didn't even know there was an ability to kick at the time. Nonetheless, it can/will be abused by a select few. Would throw tickets in for those type of people.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

A system cannot encourage players to do something...

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This is wrong. People respond to systems as they are designed. If a system encourages abuse, then people will abuse it.

For example, laws and punishments encourage people to behave properly. You are arguing that rule of law, a fundamental aspect of modern civilization, is unnecessary. (Research the Magna Carta.)

FFXIV endgame is designed around grinding. Grinding isn't fun. This encourages players to reduce effort grinding.

The ability to abuse vote kick, combined with the motivation to reduce effort (as well as other motivations: bored, jerk, etc), results in people abusing vote kick. To fix the problem, the system can remove the motivation, discourage the behavior with punishments, or change vote kick so that it cannot be abused.

People will respond to the new system design by changing their behavior.