If DR rewards boil down to myths per hour anyway...

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

Give NO myths (or possibility to queue for DR) at all unless first-timers are present, and when they are present, give 3 myths per minute (time spent not being in a fight, explaining something via chat, or watching c/s does not count, obviously). Problem solved

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There is a terrible design error:

- Myth only if there is a first-timer: How often do you encounter a first timer in a lv50 dungeon? 1 out of 10? 1 out of 20? I'll be laughing my ass off at all the DPS who spent 30mins in queue just to notice they will get no reward at all, again and again and again...

- Myth only for DR queues: Yes, this could work. But most people already queue for DR and use PF for Brayflow runs. There are people out there who need a specific dungeon for their relic, and it will only screw them.

- Myth / time: This is the worst idea ever, sorry. One could pull all mobs and aoe them, which would be quick but not rewarding, or just pull a small group, kill all but 1 and let this one life as long as possible. People undergearing on purpose, equipping the lowest possible weapon and only use auto attack. Who needs to kill bosses when you can get tons of myths for doing nothing at all.

So the one that decides which player performed the best is the new guy that doesn't even know the mechanics of the dungeon? When I was new I had no idea which in the party deserved a thumbs up since I didn't know wth was going on most of the times.

The only thing a new player can notice is which is going to kiss his *** more for those myths. It will make for a pathetic showing of let me love you scenarios and I can't do that. Is forced and fake.

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Originally Posted by Edli

The only thing a new player can notice is which is going to kiss his *** more for those myths. It will make for a pathetic showing of let me love you scenarios and I can't do that. Is forced and fake.

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Being friendly and explaining mechanics to the new guys is "kiss his ***"?

I'm sorry but this is a worse idea than a "jump to conclusion" mat. I just see Samir saying "yes, horrible, this idea".

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

Being friendly and explaining mechanics to the new guys is "kiss his ***"?

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That is going to happen a lot. Forced creepy smiles and laughing at every joke the new guy does. Is like running a dungeon with Kim Jong Un.

There are plenty of people that are helpful without a reward. You put a reward to it and you make it awkward. Is like in real life, plenty of good and horrible people around. As time goes on you'll eventually end up making friends and playing with the ones that you feel comfortable with.

A horrible person will be the same no matter what. He will put a mask once in a while and after the dungeon ends he'll send you a PM cursing you left and right for not seeing how good spirited he was. There are people that will do everything to get some myth and they will harass the player that didn't give them the reward. That is one of the reasons you don't give that power to a player, that's unnecessary responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

For an IRL situation, that would mean that you're the one in control. You're aware of what you need to do to get paid, and the employer is bound by law to pay you for the job you do. They are not allowed to withhold your money or not pay you unless very specific circumstances can be proven that show you do not deserve payment (false timesheet information, etc). What you propose in terms of the reward/payment is that it's not the employer that determines your pay, it's the customer.

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One of the very specific reasons would be me being rude towards a customer. And that is ok. For the other direction, there are limits for what a customer may do, so a thing I, of course, do not have to accept is being called names. (This is more or less the same thing that the ToS already have in place now).

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Imagine if you wanted to have the customer (the first time player) fill out a form to determine your level of pay (deciding on a window how much myth the party members might get). How often do you think these people would be willing to do a survey? How often do you think they'll actually take the time to do it and not just leave abruptly (or possibly DC at the end of a run)?

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If they really do not want to respond, just distribute myth equally. If 5 players were trying their best to help and 2 players were rude, I think new players will be more than willing to respond.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

How would you feel if, by the end of the day, maybe one or two people actually decided to pay you, but only a few dollars worth of your time?

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Would not happen the way described above. And if the absolute number of myths distributed is a concern, there could be a total sum for the dungeon (e.g. castrum - 700 myths) that are either distributed equally (100 for each experienced player in case of one newbie) or, if the new player is specifically satisfied / dissatisfied with the way he was treated - unequally.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

There's always going to be "unforeseen" (but absolutely predictable, psychologically) problems when you rely on the players to be responsible for themselves, and especially others.

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Absolutely agree, I see this mess every day in DR. So I am discussing (and refining my idea) of an alternative system that would address these problems.

How about extra myth reward if you finish the whole dungeon in 17 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Edli

There are plenty of people that are helpful without a reward. You put a reward to it and you make it awkward.

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We are already there:
- [Presumed] Intention of DR: Give myths to other players so they play old content together with new players
- Unintended consequence: They play old content, but ignore newbies (if they are lucky) or abuse them (frequently, given the number of threads on the forums).

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A horrible person will be the same no matter what. He will put a mask once in a while and after the dungeon ends he'll send you a PM cursing you left and right for not seeing how good spirited he was.

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No difference to status quo - report it, and GMs will be happy to show the way to the door.

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

No difference to status quo

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Currently a new player is not in charge of the rewards another player gets. After each dungeon run the newbie will make one person happy and 2 or 3 angry at him. Over time that accumulates and here you have this new guy in the end with a bunch of people in the server that will have not much respect for him. All he wanted to do is run some dungeons peacefully but you gave him a responsibility that is almost equal to a FC leader. Especially bad when you give that responsibility to a new player that is just trying to learn about the game and possibly make some friends. A person that is in charge of who gets what will always make enemies.

I "saved" many times a run by explaining the mechanics and healing through terrible play without even complaining and got no commendation to show for all the trouble.
Helping new players is nice and all but if you spend 3h to get through some easy dungeon because this one new player is very bad and get absolutely nothing out of it, you'd rather spend your time doing something else.