Changing Titan Ex Echo

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

Echo buff currently causes Titan's rotations to skip, for example healer runs to outside for gaol and the Echo skips over Titan's rotation and he jumps and u fall to doom inside the gaol. (Used as an example of how Echo fails to improve survivability, yes healers can learn to circumvent this)

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Healers should follow this simple equation.

Is our damage high enough we are skipping phases?

If yes then STOP RUNNING ALL THE WAY TO THE EDGE!

Fixed. Seriously pushing phases isn't the problem because that is easily compensated for. The fact that mechanics aren't improved through use of the echo is most certainly true.

I like how it is now, at full stack you can basically have everyone just spread out and eat a single weight and laugh it off. Helps a lot for those with terrible connection to the servers.

This "I'm lagging" crap needs to stop.

I'm sure some people have connection problems from time to time, but it's funny that it's always during a Titan Ex "kill party" when people suddenly start lagging and dying to every mechanic.

I play this game with 160+ ms latency and I never get hit by any mechanic during Titan Ex, unless I mess up. And I know I'm gonna get hit before it even happens because I know I reacted slow or decided to move to the wrong location (perhaps because someone was miss aligned and I didn't notice).

I don't really understand what people want. A game playable at 300+ms? That would become a ridiculous joke for everyone else. Honestly, if you ask me, the lag is in their heads.

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

main thing is that the current Echo buff doesn't assist the completion of the Content and that is the very purpose of the Echo existing.

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This is wrong. Enough Echo amassed will allow 5-6 people carry the 2-3 that can't get it done. I know most people ragequit if they don't win on the first run, but some of us don't.

I can beat Titan EX with no problems every time I attempt it, and in fact it's one of my favorite fights in the game. I am not against Echo being applied to dated content, when that Dated content is necessary for completion of the game and to further your understanding of the story's lore. When the Extreme primals were introduced to the player base, Yoshi said that this was "hardcore challenges for hardcore players." I can't speak for the rest of the community, but the fact that Echo even exists in Extreme primals makes me upset. The way these were advertised, to me, made it sound like the "challenge" part of it would persist through time. There is absolutely no story-line involved in the Extreme primals at all to warrant needing to nerf it. "Ermagerd the beast tribes PRAYED EVEN HARDER THIS TIME and got 1902472987616129846214 crystals, and Titan is now Titan x3" That is the story. Plain and simple, people who "can't" beat it without learning it's phases aren't missing out on anything other than an obsolete i90 weapon.

I'm not against the HM versions having Echo applied: They are main content needed to complete your Relic, and won't be "optional" for a large % of the player base. I'm not against the first turns of Coil having Echo appllied: There are major plot points involving the lore of the game, and storyline that every player should get a chance to see. There is literally nothing like this involved with Extreme primals. Why not leave a challenge for players to attain? Is there NOTHING in this game that will have its sanctity left intact?

You say "the groups still face the proper fight in it's pure form everytime they enter". I have two problems with this statement.

#1) You have people going into these fights that haven't had luck beating it in it's "pure form", so cause wipes after heart phase (or just post 3mins) on purpose to gain Echo. This isn't "helping anyone". It's people taking advantage of a system that is supposed to guide you, and manipulating it to get much more power than is ever needed or intended for this fight.

#2) Your suggestion of nerfing the mechanics instead of buffing damage output, will combine with my #1 point and no one will ever have to experience this (or any other) fight in it's pure form. I don't believe the entire player base should suffer from mechanics being just totally removed (or cast times lengthened), because some people can't do it.

I agree with your thoughts on SE "over-nerfing" AK. Demon Wall is a complete joke now for anyone who is above AF gear. Demon Wall....was AWESOME back in vanilla when I was grinding for Toxotes to fill the gaps between my Darklight because the fights were challenging. Demon Wall is a fraction of what it used to be, and I know ascending gear levels for experienced players plays a part in that. However, you think the over-nerfing of AK was a bad idea, and you are basically suggesting they do the same things to Titan EX.

P.S. - This is just a debate. I'm not flaming you, but I highly disagree with your point of view regarding changing the Echo mechanics for one specific fight.

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

I'm sure some people have connection problems from time to time, but it's funny that it's always during a Titan Ex "kill party" when people suddenly start lagging and dying to every mechanic.

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This fight has a tendency to show off lag problems more than any other fight in the game as well has having issues drawing on lower end machines which many users would also call lag. So it's not surprising when this suddenly happens only during Titan Ex parties.

I have literally been standing between two landslides waiting for the animation to disappear when I got knocked off. Lag does happen. The "this only happens during titan" crap needs to stop too. You're just assuming people are full of it completely unfairly.

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

This "I'm lagging" crap needs to stop.

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And there's people playing with the ideal ping and still falling I'm not sure my ping on PS3 but I be the first to move [and I'll be like right on the line of his slide] and I'm still hit. Somethings wrong here. I never have lag problems or moving out AoE's everywhere else. So I dunno what's going on when it comes down to Titan in all modes.

Well, only one thing to do. Follow our BFF Yoshi's advice: Zoom your camera out! :)

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This fight has a tendency to show off lag problems more than any other fight in the game as well has having issues drawing on lower end machines which many users would also call lag. So it's not surprising when this suddenly happens only during Titan Ex parties.

I have literally been standing between two landslides waiting for the animation to disappear when I got knocked off. Lag does happen. The "this only happens during titan" crap needs to stop too. You're just assuming people are full of it completely unfairly.

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I play on a 5 year old computer and a DSL connection that is far from the ideal SNR, across the Atlantic sea.

Do people "lag"? Yes, of course. Some people probably have a latency of over half a second. No online game with any kind of action should be oriented to cater these connections because they do not represent the norm. FFXIV already dumbed down its content enough to cater to higher latencies due to their decision of having only two data center locations.

Every single Titan Ex PF I've done has at least one person claiming they lag to the point where they cannot even dodge the most simple mechanics that don't even require a low latency line to dodge. You don't freaking need 50ms latency to dodge a landslide because:


1. You know exactly when it's coming. Exactly when it's coming
2. You know exactly where it's going to be. People stack behind Titan's ass, so the dodge patter is always the same.


Same applies to pools:

1. You know the exact moment they are going to happen
2. You can see the danger zones beforehand because you can observe the exact positions of the rest of your party members and know where the shortest route to safety goes through.


Excluding the people that actually have technical problems with their connection, what "I'm lagging" tells me is that the player cannot adapt or, what's worse, is not willing to adapt.

Titan Ex is not hard.

I don't get how echo is turning Titan EX into Titan HM. You still have to deal with Titan EX's mechanics like it's originally intended to. Echo just helps you focus on the mechanics instead of having to do that while also outputting respectable DPS. Echo also help pushing phases faster where certain mechanics might be the killer like the circle bomb + landslide during heart phase for my FC. You just have to deal with the increased DPS by estimating when titan is going to jump and adjust accordingly. FYI, you don't need to run to the edge of the arena for Gaol, just far enough that it breaks the chain.

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

1. You know exactly when it's coming. Exactly when it's coming
2. You know exactly where it's going to be. People stack behind Titan's ass, so the dodge patter is always the same.


Same applies to pools:

1. You know the exact moment they are going to happen
2. You can see the danger zones beforehand because you can observe the exact positions of the rest of your party members and know where the shortest route to safety goes through.

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I have literally been standing between two landslides waiting for the animation to disappear when I got knocked off. I knew it was coming. On my screen I dodged it just fine. I got knocked off regardless. Bolding those statements does not change that it does not explain all scenarios at all. Lag whether network or drawing lag does happen, does get people killed, and that doesn't change just because you're one of the people repeating the "you know exactly when it's coming" mantra.

Titan Ex has sold more WTFast accounts than anything else. Every player I knew who had crippling lag on this fight had it greatly resolved through this app's use. Is that a coincidence? I think not.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I have literally been standing between two landslides waiting for the animation to disappear when I got knocked off. I knew it was coming. On my screen I dodged it just fine. I got knocked off regardless. Bolding those statements does not change that it does not explain all scenarios at all. Lag whether network or drawing lag does happen, does get people killed, and that doesn't change just because you're one of the people repeating the "you know exactly when it's coming" mantra.

Titan Ex has sold more WTFast accounts than anything else. Every player I knew who had crippling lag on this fight had it greatly resolved through this app's use. Is that a coincidence? I think not.

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https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Read it and understand why your argument holds no ground.

I already acknowledged some people may have technical problems. A game that is meant to have any kind of action in it should not try to cater to them, because it defeats the original purpose.

Edit:

I can explain your specific case in three ways:

A. Your connection has an abnormal latency. By abnormal I mean you are probably running 400ms+.
B. Your computer is not correctly configured. If you use a PC for gaming, disabling the nagle's algorythm is really one of the first things you should do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagle%27s_algorithm It's your machine, take care of it.
C. You don't understand how the game works. The game, by design (sadly), has delayed action execution when it comes to monster animations and their effects. Everything in game has the problem I'm about to explain in detail, to the exception of Meteor (as far as I know):

An enemy's action is split in two phases: casting and activation. Some actions don't have a casting phase (for example an enemy's auto attack). Some casting phases are shown as a casting bar, as it is the case of Weight of the Land but some don't show it at all, which is the case with landslide. However, there is a casting phase regardless: when Titan rises his fist after turning around.

The activation phase occurs as soon as the casting phase finishes and it includes, usually, yet another animation. For Weight of the Land this is Titan slamming his fists together or for Landslide this is Titan slamming his fist on the ground and creating a shockwave of rocks.

By the time the activation phase starts the server has already decided if you got hit or not, however you are still allowed to take actions at this point. You can still move, you can still cast. In fact, it's even possible to technically land a spell after you died due to this strange effect.

In the case of landslide, it means that while the game already registered you as hit by Landslide, the effect has yet to be applied to you and you can still move around. This is why you often times see people flying to the sides of the arena instead of towards the direction the landslide actually hit.

This is not lag, this is just a poor implementation of visual cues and I keep meeting people that don't understand, despite 50 levels of dungeons, that this is how the game works.