Suggestion, make light party content tank/dps/healer/support

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

By pure potency comparison, whm has both higher single target and aoe heals. That was my point.

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I'm not really sure about this. As far as I'm concerned, SCH are easily the superior single target healer.
Physic=Cure=400 potency
Physic+Embrace=700 potency > Cure II=650 potency
Lustrate > everything

Plus, SCH doesn't generate a crap ton of enmity.

Anyway, with your setup, there are to many dps classes/jobs. Also, there really isn't a need for a support role, as there isn't really a support class/job. Bard comes the closest, but it usually boils down to Foe's Requiem if you have a BLM/SMN in the party, or Mage's Ballad if you have an overhealing WHM. I'm hoping in the future, the devs try to fit in a true support role somewhere that would greatly benefit the party. It's just that in the current state of the game, it isn't that big of a deal, and it won't be until at least the first expansion.

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

This thread isn't gonna end on a good note. Bards are really good dps, scholars are amazing healers, not sure why you are thinking lowly of them :/ Even when I had no LB at dual brd parties, they still pumped nice dps and we finished our duties fast enough. And I feel much more comfortable healing with a scholar in 8 man parties than with a second whm.

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I didn't say anything bad about either. I just stated true facts. Bard is the lowest of all dps and has support skills (no bias here, look at my main class) and Scholar has less potent (reading comprehension is important for this one) heals than the only other available healer, while also having support skills. I just feel that scholar and bard belong in the same category. There's a reason why every group doing turn 6+ will only run with bard and scholars in their group. The pure support they lend to the party is too good to pass up. It's not about topping heal or dps charts. The classes aren't identical (or else there is no point to multiple classes) and one is clearly better at a certain role than the other. I simply saying that compared to other available classes and and jobs, bard and scholar are clearly better at support than only of the other classes. Secondly, you just proved my point with your last sentence. The scholar complements and supports the white mage because it isn't simply another healer.

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

I'm not really sure about this. As far as I'm concerned, SCH are easily the superior single target healer.
Physic=Cure=400 potency
Physic+Embrace=700 potency > Cure II=650 potency
Lustrate > everything

Plus, SCH doesn't generate a crap ton of enmity.

Anyway, with your setup, there are to many dps classes/jobs. Also, there really isn't a need for a support role, as there isn't really a support class/job. Bard comes the closest, but it usually boils down to Foe's Requiem if you have a BLM/SMN in the party, or Mage's Ballad if you have an overhealing WHM. I'm hoping in the future, the devs try to fit in a true support role somewhere that would greatly benefit the party. It's just that in the current state of the game, it isn't that big of a deal, and it won't be until at least the first expansion.

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You assume that when every you use physic you can use embrace, which is not true. The cooldown for embrace is longer than physic (and is also not able to be decreased) and unless your pet is on guard, you also can't control every embrace (the pet could be using embrace on another target when you want to use it on your target, so you have to wait until the pet is off cooldown). Lustrate is also not greater than everything. A tank will low HP will restore less hp with a lustrate than a cure II for example (on a geared healer).

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

...Suggestion, make light party content tank/dps/healer/support ...This way, groups will have the option of having the dps oriented support or the healing oriented support....

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If a class is identified as support in light party, how come it will be another role in a full party ^^?
The suggestion will restrict a party must contain a sch or a brd but not both, so maybe it is less option but not having an option?
btw, I guess the best heal sch and best dps brd will not agree with it ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

If a class is identified as support in light party, how come it will be another role in a full party ^^?
The suggestion will restrict a party must contain a sch or a brd but not both, so maybe it is less option but not having an option?
btw, I guess the best heal sch and best dps brd will not agree with it ^^;

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I don't see a problem with full party composition changing depending on the instance. Some instances will be 2 tank, 2 support, 1 heal, 3 dps. Some will be 1 tank, 1 support, 1 heal, 5 dps, etc.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

I didn't say anything bad about either....snip.

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For your information Scholar is main tank healer...they have better single target healing than WHM by far and much less of an aggro magnet...but you forget that Scholars don't actually heal like WHM, they shield and that shield HEALS, plus as many others have said, you have the fairy healing on top of that, so any comparison to Physick and Cure is totally irrelevant, it may be the only skill WHM has as a base heal, it certainly isn't the only skill Scholars have :). WHM are raid healers, their single target healing doesn't even compare to the superiority of the SCH, but they are much better at raid healing.

Having got that out of the way. Scholars are healers pure and simple. We have a choice as to where we put our points, either for SCH (healing) or for Summoner (dps)...those of us who are healers obviously choose the best stat for healing, even in cleric stance we aren't as good dps as a pure specced summoner. The day they even contemplated making SCH support is the day I put my HEALER away.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

I don't see a problem with full party composition changing depending on the instance. Some instances will be 2 tank, 2 support, 1 heal, 3 dps. Some will be 1 tank, 1 support, 1 heal, 5 dps, etc.

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Yes, it will be no problem and consistent if the role is fixed in any size of party.
Anyway I think it should involve some job tunnings for the suggestion, that's the problem...^^;

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

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I assume nothing. I simply macro Physic/Embrace together. If they go off together, they go off together. It can't control all of them, but most of them yes, if the rest of your group isn't derping it up. If they do derp, or take unavoidable damage, that's what AoE heals are for, or simply just throwing them a Physic. It's hardly ever needed they go off together, but they go off together more often than Cure II is needed, at half the mp cost and a fraction of the enmity.

Yes, Lustrate > everything simply because it scales so much better than any other cure, it costs no mp, and is NOT on gcd (only 1 sec cooldown). On my WAR, the only things that can beat it are Cure II Crit (barely), Physic/Embrace double Crit (barely), or and Adloquium Crit. Speaking of Adloquium...

Adloquium=300 potency heal+300 potency shield=600 effective potency...until it crits! Then it becomes 450 potency cure+ 900 potency shield=1350 potency!

So yeah...SCH > WHM for single target heals.

But really, if you are in an 8-man party with a SCH/WHM combination, the SCH should take the MT and the WHM should take the OT/party damage with an occasional Cure I for the MT. It's kind of like the WHM is supporting the SCH...

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Originally Posted by Rosy

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I suppose you're one of those guys who believe warriors are offtanks and paladins are main tanks. you lost credibility in the first sentence. Bravo. And why would it be possible for scholar to match summoner dps? Do you even read what you write? I also didn't compare physic to cure. Other posters in the topic did. I don't see what is so hard for you to realize that WHM can do nothing be heal (essentially). Scholars are much more than healers. Why do you wish for scholars be both better at healing (than a class that only heals) and provide support to the party.

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

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You're messing with random numbers (crits, unreliable pet actions) in your explanation. Why don't you try to use reliable numbers which you can replicate in any situation?