Names for Tempering

You know Moose, the more I think of it the more I think the mysterious Primal that so put the fear of the gods into the XIVth shortly after the fall of Ala Mhigo was just a mislabeling of Midgardsormr on SE's part, as they called Midgardsormr 'an elder Primal' on the 'Waning of the Sixth Sun' recap disc on the Collector's Edition, only to then state that was a mistake.

So it's likely the labeling of a 'Primal' appearing to halt the Garlean advance is just another typo in the same way (it fits the time frame for the supposed incident, and also remember that during the Battle of Silvertear Skies, when the Agrius crashed and ruptured the seal in Silvertear Lake, Primals in fact did appear - but not just one, hundreds of them shot out of the aether at high speed.).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

So it's likely the labeling of a 'Primal' appearing to halt the Garlean advance is just another typo in the same way

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I've often wondered that myself; especially considering "shortly after" could easily be five years when compared to the fact that usually, when this incident is brought up, we're being told a history that spans from the Empire's founding all the way up through the conquering of the East to the invasion of Eorzea. The only thing stopping me from just believing that and calling it a day is that, if this was indeed an error, how did they go from using it on the original FFXIV Promotional website to REUSING it on the ARR promotional website and never noticing the mistake? And then on top of that watching us try to figure it out for years without ever stopping in like, "You can let that go, now. That was our bad. Sorry!"

All they'd have had to do is say, like, "so, when we said 'a primal' what we really meant was 'the primals,' you know, after Silvertear."

I really do look forward to it, as this is really conflicting and challenging to my headfruit!

And yet, I feel that it does not mean Silvertear at all - I feel that this "primal siting" is what helped spur on the Garleans to first of all, build up appropriate weaponry and airships, and then to attack in the battle of Silvertear, in a tactic that they thought would ensure it doesn't happen again/a primal could not stop their advance.


At that point in time, though, how did the Garleans perceive the Eikons to be beatable? By genocide of the beastmen? Did they have access to the ultimate weapon then? If a primal was summonable without the seal being broken, than that seems anticlimactic - there was no point to break the seal, really.

I've mentioned this previously, but my theory is that there was some sort of elder primal in the region of Ala Mhigo, trapped within some sort of device and accidentally/purposefully released a la Bahamut and Odin. It may not need to be summoned, then, and indeed would enjoy bloody retribution upon release. With the Ultimate Weapon being buried underneath Ala Mhigo, there indeed could be other technology which had the capability to entrap primals in the region. The summoner quest line shows evidence that that Allag were capable of summoning elder primals as egi - so a conclusion would be that they were able to defeat elder primals in battle.

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Originally Posted by Kyan

At that point in time, though, how did the Garleans perceive the Eikons to be beatable? By genocide of the beastmen? Did they have access to the ultimate weapon then? If a primal was summonable without the seal being broken, than that seems anticlimactic - there was no point to break the seal, really.

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As far as the Empire knew then or knows now, the Primals truly are unbeatable, technically, no? You can conquer the summoners until they can no longer summon, you can trap the essences with ancient technology, but you cannot destroy them as yet we've seen. The Garleans suffered massive casualties putting down the primals of the East when they conquered Othard and they didn't want that to happen again in Eorzea. Lahabrea didn't come to Gaius in Ala Mhigo to reveal Ultima Weapon buried beneath it until after the Calamity, it seems. The breaking of the seal was likely accidental. All the Garleans wanted was to take control of the aetherial super-confluence at Mor Dhona to stop the tribes from harnessing it, but Midgardsormr awoke and called forth a host of dragons large enough to challenge the Garlean armada - the seal wouldn't have broken if Midgardsormr didn't crash Agrius into Silvertear Lake and set off the massive ceruleum explosion. Hell, there's no indication so far that they even really understood that a seal was there or what it did.

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Originally Posted by Kyan

my theory is that there was some sort of elder primal in the region of Ala Mhigo

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Unless it happened after Silvertear, that's one of the few possibilities I can think of. I've stopped trying to figure it out. For all I know, the Ultima Weapon still had a Primal in the tank from the Third Astral Era and someone shook it loose in that whole civil war and Garlean occupation (probably not, but with a door open that wide, why speculate too seriously?)

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Originally Posted by Kyan

The summoner quest line shows evidence that that Allag were capable of summoning elder primals as egi - so a conclusion would be that they were able to defeat elder primals in battle.

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That quest line actually makes me question if an elder primal is anything but a primal from a bygone era. For instance, if Garuda was trapped in the Ultima Weapon and forgotten until long after the Ixal went extinct and then she was released - would she be an elder primal? Was there anything special about Belias aside from the fact he was another era's fire primal? All that questline really showed us was that the Asians could, it seems, via the soulstone of long-dead Allagan summoners, bring back the memory of a primal whose summoners, too, were long gone.

I think they wanted all this to be kind of vague, lol.

I understand primals not being truly beatable, which is why I guess I want to understand what the Garleans thought process was in regards to them. Surely they would have experienced this in Othard, yet overcame it. Was this through genocide of the Othardian beast tribes? If you remove the tribes, there is no one to summon the primal. At what point to they start listening to the advice of Ascians?

Yes, it is vague in a way, yet particular in mentioning little points which really makes me anxious with anticipation. This is why I like focusing on learning about the other continents - that makes me satisfied! This history and lore stuff just makes me frustrated! xD

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Originally Posted by Kyan

Was this through genocide of the Othardian beast tribes? If you remove the tribes, there is no one to summon the primal.

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That's a big unknown. We know they fought primals there, but under what circumstance? Were the beast tribes from outside of the cities like they are in Eorzea, or were they the primary inhabitants of said cities? Were they even "beast tribes" or were they just "people?" We know they have at least a couple of "the wandering races" there, in addition to whatever race the Doma are (inb4 Domans = beast tribes conspiracy theories). Did they have their own icon gods? Were the Ascians involved there before they came here? What then was the significance of the Silverlake seal? Was there one there? How long as the fall of the Sixth Astral Era really been in motion if Primals preexisted Hydaelyn's echo? Why do I have the feeling this is going to remain unanswered until we go there in a far-off expansion pack?

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Originally Posted by Kyan

At what point to they start listening to the advice of Ascians?

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This one is much easier. The Black Wolf's second invasion was implied to be of his own doing, completely independent of the homeland. When the XIVth Tribuni arrived, Nero and Livia spoke of the Emperor having one foot in the grave and the other desperately clinging to his throne as rivals began to vie for power. By the time the Domans show up, they claim that a full-scale war of succession is being waged in Garlemald. I think it's heavily implied that when unrest engulfed the homeland, Lahabrea came to Gaius in an hour of desperation - he'd failed to gain a foothold beyond Ala Mhigo (1557), failed to take Silvertear without incident and lost Agrius (1562), and was holding a stalemate for ten years before being put under the command of a primal-worshiping, moon-dropping maniac. This was Gaius' last chance to win back the respect and power that he'd lost, to be seen as The Black Wolf once again. He stretched himself to his limits and was desperate to succeed - that's when the Ascians come for you. Same with Thancred, save for the fact Thancred had to be taken over rather than just manipulated.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Why do I have the feeling this is going to remain unanswered until we go there in a far-off expansion pack?

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Very true. I'm willing to have my Eorzean passport stamped and go an an adventure to find out! :D

I know it will be a while to find answers, but I have to ask these questions to get them out of my mind or I'll go crazy! And very true about who summoned primals. It could be beastmen or people.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Titan and Leviathan were first summoned around the same time and we never learned how Titan's tempering was referred to. Even the term "Drowned" didn't show up until ARR - in 1.0 they were just despicable pirates who'd abandoned their kin to "take up the Sahagin god." After Ifrit tempers some people, one Small Talk NPC inside an instance simply muses "I've heard rumors the beast tribes brainwash people - maybe that's what the Serpent Ravers are!" and left it at just "brainwashing."

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I haven't really put much thought into Titan's tempering in my theory because the only real instance we have of him doing so at all is in the unreleased scenes when he was in danger. If Titan's tempering isn't as common an occurrence as Leviathan's, people would think of Leviathan's most often. Assuming Leviathan even did drowning back then. Your sentence about the reavers being 'despicable pirates who'd abandoned their kin to "take up the Sahagin god"' reminded me one of the Sahagin quests. It is "An Enthralling Engagement". I don't have text right here, but Seww mentions that there is a "finless" cult that worships Leviathan and the reavers are parts of this cult. He mentions that conflict wouldn't arise as much if the Reavers stopped forcing others to worship him unwillingly. This makes me think that the drowning might be a recent tactic. Willing worshippers (like mentioned in 1.0) wouldn't HAVE to be tempered. If that's the case my theory of why Limsa thinks of drowning loses some oomph.

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Originally Posted by Kyan

I understand primals not being truly beatable, which is why I guess I want to understand what the Garleans thought process was in regards to them. Surely they would have experienced this in Othard, yet overcame it. Was this through genocide of the Othardian beast tribes? If you remove the tribes, there is no one to summon the primal. At what point to they start listening to the advice of Ascians?

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Here's something that popped into my head without any proof to back it up. We know that there is a difference in the amount of aether in different parts of the world (Eorzea has a higher than normal amount for example). What if the summoning of the Othard primals drained too much of Othard's already lower aether for them to be summoned anymore? Would that be able to happen without Eozea's aether being affected?

I am looking forward to it! Super hard! I hate unanswered questions, and really hope this gets resolution.