Coloured Dyes Removing: 'Shader effect'

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Originally Posted by Gramul

This is why I never dye my metallic armor. And also why I really don't like the Zenith armor. It looks so cheap when put up against the regular Relic armor.

Thank you for bringing it up Shioban.

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I still find the old look to some of the original artifact armour in 1.23 better.

I still have videos/screens from 1.23 where Paladins, Monks and Dragoons actually looked like they were wearing metal but at a beastly rendering cost. Some of the new Myth armour is terrible for this, the White Plastic Paladin Armour is (eugh)
But as a compromise for performance originally in 2.0s development which is completely understandable but thankfully not beyond repair.

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Originally Posted by Earende

I noticed this issue the very first time I tried applying dyes, and pretty much stopped using it since (not to mention you can't get some colours, or there is no actual black....)

It is easier to notice this with plate armours (GLA, MRD, PLD, WAR), like Cobalt Cuirass where the majority of it is shiny and all.

I always believed the reason for this is something like putting paint on cars - thus the shiny goes away. ;9

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That is a strange reason for doing it if it is deliberate (this is a fantasy world after all, conforming to this real life constraint would be a huge waste of the dye system.
However a good point!

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I hope this isn't due to some unfortunate technical limitation. I mean, they went out of their way to actually build this system from the ground up. Seems like a waste to be unable to keep the specular gloss.
Maybe that's a fix that can come with DX11. They where talking about being able to use new shaders for it.

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The effect of the real-time reflections we had in 1.23 were gorgeous (as I previously mentioned) but sadly have a stupidly high rendering cost if done wrong (alá 1.23).
If they actually considered adding it in for the DX11 client (even though this is a DX8 shader if not even earlier I don't exactly remember) that would be amazing.

To be crass, "balls to the wall" in terms of graphical requirements for the DX11 client would make me and a ton of other people very happy (seeing as its optional, why not do it as a future investment when the world of average hardware shifts )


(And also thank you for the support!)

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Originally Posted by Gramul

http://i5.minus.com/ij6uJ0r79HFiL.jpg
Note how the undyed edges stay shiny. Also, an interesting feature about this armor is that it seems to turn more silvery in sunlight when undyed.
But anyway, like Shioban said, it's low priority but nice to have.

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And I've added this to the OP! [Credited]

Playing devil's advocate here, but could it be that they were going for a "painted" look on metal? I know they had plans for stuff like metallic and patterned dyes so these might be intended to look uh... not-shiny.

Ah, so that's why I keep seeing tanks in plastic armour...

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but it kinda looks like it's still there. Just with lighter colors it doesn't seem to be as obvious.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

http://i5.minus.com/ij6uJ0r79HFiL.jpg
Note how the undyed edges stay shiny. Also, an interesting feature about this armor is that it seems to turn more silvery in sunlight when undyed.
But anyway, like Shioban said, it's low priority but nice to have.

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What's really strange is the gold trim is consistent across undyed and the two colors shown. They're obviously the same shader and it's working just fine. It would appear that when dying certain armors (no idea personally how far reaching the effect is) the game uses specular, color, normal, and/or some other maps that are incomplete or inconsistent with the undyed levels. Even though the dye system should only require swapping out the color map (which itself should be made by filling one color with another if you do a lot of layering in PS) they seem to have produced more maps than needed and made them poorly to boot. I'm not sure it's a technical problem at all. I think it's an artistic one (inconsistent and ineffective textures being used with dyed armor for no apparent reason).

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Playing devil's advocate here, but could it be that they were going for a "painted" look on metal? I know they had plans for stuff like metallic and patterned dyes so these might be intended to look uh... not-shiny.

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Possibly, would be a waste of a great customisation system.

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Originally Posted by Nutz

They're obviously the same shader and it's working just fine. .

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Could be.

But with the Warwolf PvP gear it appears to be a specific shader effect and not the usual specular effect which seems to be almost completely defeated.

However I could be wrong the shader effect might remain and simlpy be dampened by a new colour layer (still very odd however, technically the new layer should defeat it completely)

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Originally Posted by Nutz

What's really strange is the gold trim is consistent across undyed and the two colors shown. They're obviously the same shader and it's working just fine. Even though the dye system should only require swapping out the color map I think it's an artistic one (inconsistent and ineffective textures being used with dyed armor for no apparent reason).

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There's a very high potential that this has been done deliberately, which would be very VERY silly. As it would completely defeat the purpose and flexibility of the dye system, most certainly it's not a technical limitation, that wouldn't make any sense (thankfully).


So there's a potential that this is the issue but very unlikey, so take everything I've said here on with a pinch of salt.
My 'theorycraft' so far is material layers;
*Pending this is how they do it.

> Shader Effect
> Specular Map
> Normal/Bump Map
> Diffuse Map [Base Colour]

So essentially what I /think/ is happening is this;

> Diffuse Map [Dye Layer]
> Shader Effect
> Specular Map
> Normal/Bump Map
> Diffuse Map [Base RGB Colour]

This doesn't make sense however in that the new diffuse layer should defeat the specular/shader effects. Odd.

Well, it would only be a waste as of right now as we only have matte dyes. If/When they do bring out shiny and patterned dyes it would potentially be better than just the color changing, since if you didn't like the shiny effect like me it would allow you that option on shiny gear. If said dyes are rare it could lead to having more unique looks.

Just unfortunate that if I am right and that is the case, it wasn't completely implemented.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Just unfortunate that if I am right and that is the case, it wasn't completely implemented.

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Either way works!

If they made shiny dyes very rare it'd be a nice market for crafters/gatherers. A rare gathering drop or a 1-2 Star synth item would be a pretty good benefit to the crafters/gatherers.

I do like the idea of matte and gloss dyes. Could be useful for rough cloth and shiny armor respectively.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I do like the idea of matte and gloss dyes. Could be useful for rough cloth and shiny armor respectively.

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Matte/Gloss would be nice and easy (as they're already sitting ready to go)

Although it'd be rather difficult, someone suggested to me patterned dyes (like the militia harness/subligar) using a big-cat print.
Lots of room for exansion (however some might be more difficult than others)

However material layers are much easier to implement in games now, applying a "tiled pattern" effect to gear might be rather easy (just a time consuming task to get right). Could make for some rare/interesting dyes on the market (similar to Guild Wars 2 where true Black/White dyes are a fortune).