[Suggestion] Do away with holy trinity in the long run

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

Black mages have. . . err apoctastasis.

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BLM have Lethargy, a good slow attack and slow movement is useful to kite and survive while waiting for healer/tank to catch up.

A little off topic, but :

And a good DPS is not "do all Max damage right now" it's more like "do it when it's the right moment"...
If tank cannot keep aggro, it's not always his fault, sometime when all DPS go all out before he can actually do his first hate combo, he can't do anything to keep it better (Bards like to use all their skill ASAP and run everywhere, screwing the hate management and positioning of the tank).
Unfortunatly, when this happen, people tend to flame the tank. This happen in duty roulette where the tank isn't over geared for the content and the other are (and this is still not the fault of the tank)

A good DPS observe how a tank can keep aggro, and should slow his attack (at start) accordingly, a good DPS should attack the same target to kill it faster and lower the damage to the team, should help in stunning/silencing AoE, staying out of AoE.
It's not always about "i've got the biggest DPS on this fight, i'm better than you !!"

In Topic :
What the OP ask is just that the difference between stats of class's should be lessen... And what you will see is stacking of max DPS to roll on content. Not interesting, no strat...

TL;Only skimmed.

While I agree that War and Pld need a slight dmg boost, but that's pretty much what you sign up for when you decide to play tank.

Maybe you should play ESO, where Classes exist, but Everyone can use Any weapon and Any armor type.

Amusingly enough, what the OP described was the oldschool archetype for classes in RPGs. The "fighter" class was a melee-focused bruiser who could deal a lot of damage. They were defaulted as the tank though because these same classes tended to have access to heavy armor and high hp totals. Understandably, the trope and gaming conventions were slightly different then (still being considered an offshoot of single-player rpgs). Developers recognized early on that healing classes were no fun if they only had heals and buffs.The earliest MMOs were plagued by an overemphasis on parties and very few players in the healer/support roles. Blizzard capitalized on that failing to introduce dps skills to healers/supports and create solo-able content. This led to some interesting developments, such as the extinction of the support class (subsumed by dps). If that sounds familiar to what is being done to healers and tanks, don't be too frightened. Without a change in how enemy encounters are designed, the trinity will probably remain to some degree.

The trinity is honestly a form of categorizing the specialization of roles between classes in a party and is recognizable to some degree in any rpg. They have just not always been specific to classes. You certainly would not expect to see that system revamped from a AAA title like FFXIV, but perhaps from an inde game. That way, if the system fails, you only lose tens of thousands of dollars at most, compared to tens of millions. If it works, you just amp up the scale and go for a higher production value after resolving the issues in the current system. As an example, remember that FFXIV tried that something similar in 1.0 and we all know how well that was received. Admittedly, it had many more pressing problems than the combat system, but SE couldn't afford to make a mistake on the relaunch.

First off, your not looking far enough back for the origins of RPGs. The fundamental archetype of the entire genre is D&D, which was developed in the 70s, well before video games were known to anyone outside of a university computer lab, and it was explicitly a multiplayer construct so you can't say that it all grew out of single player design. The later single player designs of the early video game RPGs were actually built around creating a similar multiplayer experience with only a single player, which is why you had a single player controlling an entire party instead of a single entity exclusively.

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Originally Posted by Anova

The "fighter" class was a melee-focused bruiser who could deal a lot of damage.

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Actually, even in the early days, Fighter as a comparatively low damage class characterized by being the guy that was the most survivable and drawing fire by being in the front of the party, right in the monsters' face. Thieves were higher damage but skirted the outside of the battle and remained unseen; clerics were squishier than fighters due to lower hit points but traded away those hit points for defensive/support spellcasting capability, and wizards were glass cannons that hid behind the fighter hoping that no one would notice them.

The fundamental idea of the holy trinity has existed since the RPG was first conceived. The only difference between then and now is that there is mechanical enforcement of it instead of simply a thematic underpinning. The major variation between the two trinities, however, is one of necessary specialization. Because of the freeform nature of PnPs wherein there isn't a predefined and manipulable AI (you don't have aggro/enmity and targeting is assigned in the abstract by the GM reading the situation) and situations can vary greatly from turn to turn (since hp totals are much lower, and damage dealt is much more variable thanks to using dice being used for a majority of damage dealt and misses being much more common due to a general 50% hit chance assumption as opposed to an "always hit" assumption; a basic attack one turn can miss and in the very next turn reduce the tank to half hp) with a much more valuable action economy (not taking an action during your turn is much more severe than skipping a GCD), generalists actually work and, in fact, everyone has to be generalized to some extent. In MMOs, where the enemy actions are much more predictable and relative costs are much lower, specialization reigns supreme because there isn't slack that regularly needs to be picked up from turn to turn; the needs of a group, both tactical and strategic, are *much* more predictable than they are in PnP games which screws over generalists because their strength is addressing the unpredictable.

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I think the idea of a tanky dps is perfectly acceptable, although it would require reworking the hp totals and enmity multipliers to reflect the extra damage. I'm certain someone will come up with a fix in the future, but I'm not certain it will be done in this game.

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The problem with implementing tanky DPS or tanks with good DPS isn't based around manipulating flat damage numbers, enmity, or survivability because, at that point, you're simply generalizing a class and making it worse in a specialized context. It's more important to actually look at what the problems with "DPS tanks" need to be addressed, the most significant being why the hell anyone would bring anything except for tanks if tanks are dealing as much damage as the DPS.

The solution to this is actually pretty simple: address the problem directly by limiting the situational capability of a tank to deal high levels of damage by only allowing them to access said high damage while they are tanking, such that DPS becomes high damage characters that can deal damage regardless of situation whereas tanks are only high damage when they're performing a very specific role. In this way, you wouldn't want to bring a crapton of tanks, even if those tanks are capable of doing DPS level damage in the right scenario, because only a limited number are going to be doing appreciable damage, which is what groups already do.

Implementing this isn't actually that hard either. There are 2 effective that I know of that work quite well: the mechanics applied to defenders in 4e D&D, wherein tanks get to deal large amounts of damage to a nearby enemy (enough that, if they are afforded one of these attacks per turn, they're actually the highest damage role in the game) that elects to attack one of the defender's allies instead of the defender, and a beefed up system similar to what WoW first started doing in WotLK, wherein tanks got an increase to their attack power based upon their damage taken. Personally, I prefer a combination of the two in which a tank simply deals additional damage to a target that is focusing upon them or someone who is not a tank; it combines the two methods by allowing tanks to keep attention on them (so that they're specialized), deal useful and noticeable levels of damage (so players feel like they're contributing directly by dumping on the numbers), and also limits tank utility to the number of entities that you actually need to tank during the fight (so that they aren't displacing DPS).

Keep in mind, this isn't doing away with the trinity. It's actually preserving it by reinforcing the role of the tank by having it address a specific situation and being dramatically inferior in any other case. The biggest problem I see with this change would be the decrease in attraction of the healing role, since the only way to maintain the attractiveness of healers would be tying their damage to the overall health of the group in some way so that they can only deal damage when they've already done their job, which has some design problems involved.

The Holy Trinity is based on simple numbers. The game is about killing stuff. When killing stuff 2 things happen. You take damage and you give damage.

But sometimes you can't kill them before they kill you...and that's where the third thing comes in...Healing.

Because of this simple system of how we interact with monsters (dealing, taking, and healing damage) we have the Holy Trinity. Any time you throw any sort of classes at us we are going to look for some form of the HT simply because in a team situation specialization simply makes more sense. Or if you homogenize the classes in a non-HT system enough then you just have 4 dps running around trying to kill something together which usually results in far less teamwork since everyone kind just does the same thing but x4 or x8 people. That's why GW2 dungeons had you sort of know on paper what you were doing to aid your group but it didn't feel as fulfilling. It wasn't like securing the tank's health situation with a clutch Benediction or Silencing the Boss (and you were the only one who could possibly do it at that time). The list of specialized actions goes on and on and those coming together create teamwork and class identity which is what makes the game fun.

Everyone regards the Holy Trinity as some awful idea or archaic thing that needs to be done away with. Instead, why don't we think of more ways to make it interesting? Bard being dps/support hybrid is pretty fantastic. Give us a Dancer job for PUG where they dps and buff/heal their allies in interesting ways. Incorporate ways for DPS to help mitigate damage on the tank in a big way maybe. Let the Tanks and healers and DPS interact with one another in various job-specific ways and interactions. Give more weight and options to the party makeup. That's what will keep the game interesting. And honestly, they've taken steps in that direction already with how different and synergistic the different tanks/healers are.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

A bad DPS passes under the radar because it's hard to notice a bad DPS, especially since parsers aren't really used often.

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Bad DPS is very noticeable, especially in things like Coil and certain mobs such as the final boss of Haukke Manor HM. What isn't immediately obvious is which DPS isn't pulling their weight (if you have a DRG it's usually that because 99% of them are terrible), which is where parsers come in useful.

You could say that the classes like bard which use support skills and not just DPS are the 4th role, but even this is not taking away from the trinity, they are just helping others perform their roles in the trinity better by keeping MP and TP up and whatnot. DPS is reduced of course, but not as much as a healer or tank is reducing their DPS in order to fulfill their roles. I believe as more jobs are added we will see more of this type of thing happening. It is the closest to expanding/changing the holy trinity as we will get in ff 14 imo and also a good idea for adding more differentiation between DPS jobs and what they bring to parties and raids. Hopefully we will get more Tank and Healing jobs as well to help balance out the disparity between number of healers/tanks vs DPS, but that is a gripe for another discussion.

Was about to say that...=) Its an important definition Kitru.....A pure democracy would be even worse than the stolen democratic republic we now have.

As for the OP, While I wouldn't mind some hybrid classes, that can fill 2 roles for a time, or something along those lines (ie have necessary cool downs to tank for X amount of time, or being able to switch to healer as a DPS in a certain stance, or just in general have some utility heals that take burden off the heals but long cooldowns whatever.)

The trinity is here to stay, I prefer it.

Never seen such a tank disparity before, the underlying reasons are as mentioned and of course options! Neither tank do I particularly like, healers also only have 2 options, but the difference is exactly what Kitru said, plus as a healer soloing is quite easy typically (im speaking in MMOs generally) and so you have people gravitate towards those roles with less responsibility more options and easier time soloing while waiting for a party.

I think if they add 2 more tank classes, the disparity would lessen.

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Originally Posted by sylin

as a healer soloing is quite easy typically and so you have people gravitate towards those roles with less responsibility more options and easier time soloing while waiting for a party.

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I like to pretend the people I'm healing are my little minions that I send forth to do my bidding.

I don't really feel like I have less responsibility healing though. And I personally didn't pick it for easy soloing. I just tried it out and enjoyed playing it. To me healing is satisfying. I feel good doing it. I think the reason people stray from tanks is because it feels less satisfying. Healers get to see their big heal numbers, and watch their minions' health bars fill back up. DPS get to see big damage numbers coupled with fairly active gameplay. It feels pretty good to nail your rotation perfectly, while still dodging aoes and or dealing with boss mechanics. But tanks, they get to stand still and see low damage numbers, and less than flashy mitigation text scroll slowly by. You know you're doing something, but you don't feel it or see it like the healers or DPS. Sure you have to dodge aoes and deal with boss mechanics, but that's not special to tanking. We need something to show up that says, "Good job tank, you blocked the hell out of that guy," or, "Awesome! You're not dead!" maybe, "Nice, you totally positioned that guy in the right spot and DIDN'T wipe your raid!" And they need to pop up with confetti and fireworks. Or I think more reactive tanking abilities might work. Something that says without words, "You blocked that nerd, now show him who's boss and stab him right in the face." Tanking just feels less satisfying to me in this game. It can't help that tanks are built to take hate whether it be from the monsters or the players. People need to be nicer to our tanks. That might help us see more playing.

TL;DR Tanking needs to be more active. Dropping cooldowns to increase some form of your passive mitigation for 30 seconds is boring. Pressing a high damage attack after blocking or parrying, is fun. Anyone else wonder why tanks don't get something like Haymaker?

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Originally Posted by Aura_Shurifon

BLM have Lethargy, a good slow attack and slow movement is useful to kite and survive while waiting for healer/tank to catch up.

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Haha thanks, my knowledge of BLM is somewhat limited. Hell I still need to level 5 more times for swiftcast.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

I don't really feel like I have less responsibility healing though. And I personally didn't pick it for easy soloing. I just tried it out and enjoyed playing it. To me healing is satisfying. I feel good doing it.

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I heal when I'm feeling lazy because a good healer will have stretches where they don't have to do anything healer-like and neither healer can really spam DPS usefully (Stone II is costly and meh) so the DPS you provide is generally DoT and watch.

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I think the reason people stray from tanks is because it feels less satisfying.

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The most satisfying thing for me, as a tank, is not seeing big damage numbers. It's seeing big spike boss attacks rendered completely null and void. Get a SCH to adloq you right before a big attack and blow a CD at the right time and you can ignore a Mountain Buster, Incinerate, or even a Death Sentence completely. When you take less damage from a massive burst attack than you would from an auto-attack, it's *incredibly* satisfying, moreso than just seeing a big heal or big damage number because it's such a massive deviation from the norm.

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But tanks, they get to stand still and see low damage numbers, and less than flashy mitigation text scroll slowly by.

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A WAR is actually going to see some of the largest damage numbers fly up of any class. An Inner Beast crit when you've got Berserk rolling is going to about as hard as a Full Thrust crit; the same is true of a Butcher's Block with Unchained + Berserk. WAR *does* get to see big numbers fly up and, in fact, is liable to see bigger numbers than BRD (since BRD is all about DoTs and bonus off-GCD attacks). PLD can get some pretty big numbers too, when using Spirits Within (potency 300 attack) with FoF active. PLD numbers won't ever be *as* big, but that's because they get more attacks. Tanks just tend to not notice it as much because they're not focused on their damage.

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Anyone else wonder why tanks don't get something like Haymaker?

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PLD gets Shield Swipe, which is a 210 potency attack for 40 TP that they can use after a successful block (it's also applies Pacification, but that means next to nothing to NPCs). WARs can cross class Haymaker from PGL. Tanks in ARR have access to the riposte style attacks; the problem is that they suck. Shield Swipe is normal enmity and provides only 6.67 more potency per GCD than the RoH combo. Haymaker explicitly does less and the Slow effect doesn't even do much because it suffers from DR and most bosses are immune to it anyways.

What you should really be saying is that the riposte style attacks should be made much beefier, which a lot of tanks actually want, especially PLDs asking for Shield Swipe to do more since it's basically worthless.