Making WAR More Diverse/Fun Again

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I think you just want a DPS job based off MRD? Which would be freakin' sweet.

If WAR could double as DPS, PLD better be able to double as a Healer, and MNK better be able to tank. Allowing one role to do 2 things really well would break the crap out of this game. WAR's already have a DPS stance in NOT having defiance on, and keeping Maim up all the time.

I know I am kind of sounding like a nay-saying jerk right now, but it would just be way too powerful.

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yes and no.

I'm hoping that MRD will also branch into DRK, but I LOVED WAR & PLD the way they were in 1.23 and I just don't like them in ARR - PLD feels weird without Holy Succor and WAR just can't bring the pain like it did in 1.23 and that sucks. I loved being able to either dps or tank on a whim as the party needed. At least PLD can throw up Sword Oath to supplement their auto-attack damage (50 potency is pretty big too). WAR gets... 20 seconds of unrestricted damage, but your wrath is also consumed in the process so.... yay?


Again, seriously, you can't tell me that WAR shouldn't be able to dps with those huge axes. I'd love to have the old steel cyclone back, but only in the offensive mode.

I also really don't see how this would make the shortage of tanks worse - if anything it would make it better as you'd have a job that fullfil either role in a pinch rather than getting pidgeonholed which is what the current armory system does.

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

This will never happen because of the roles set for duties. I'd rather have the separate job option based on MRD like someone else said (Dark Knight, Berserker, etc.)

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I would agree, so I suspect they're thinking more bonus utility than specific role. For example, you could have a "hybrid" Dark Knight (GLA) who is a DPS with the ability to hold aggro. Not a good tank in general with low eHP and severely limited mitigation abilities (depending on what is done with Rampart and Sentinel), but can do things like hold onto Chirada so the MT doesn't need to eat double WW.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

I loved being able to either dps or tank on a whim as the party needed.

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This would just be straight up bad. If a tank can DPS, there's no need for DPS.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

So the first obvious thing is to allow MRD/WAR to wear offensive gear again. In 1.23, PLD WAR & DRG could all equip the offensive Darklight Armor, with the Heavy variant being reserved for just WAR & PLD. Now it's LNC/DRG only, and that blows. It was fun being a high HP dps in 1.23, and it strikes me as a bit silly that a Job that wields such massive great axes can't double as a dps role, so that's step 1 (Allagan gear too of course).

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Have you looked at the stats of DRG and MNK gear? Heavy Allagan Armor and Allagan Cuirass of Maiming have the exact same STR and VIT. The main difference is that the tank gear has way more def and mdef. If Warrior had the option to use both, they would never choose to wear DRG gear.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

The other (bigger) change is to rework Unchained. In its current form it simply allows you to deal full damage again for 20 seconds. I'd much rather it be changed to an alternate stance skill similar to Defiance, but with DPS buffs instead of tanking. Instead of gaining wrath with each attack as you do with Defiance, in this new form it gradually builds up over time/as you attack and grants bonus effects to your weaponskills based on how much wrath you have. Enmity is also lowered rather than increased.

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Warrior's DPS stance is turning off Defiance. Enmity is reduced and they deal 25% more damage. They can even do it off the GCD unlike PLD. Having another stance similar to Sword Oath that maintains the Wrath mechanic would be cool, but what we have now works pretty well.

People seem to have this perception that Warrior was an amazing DD in 1.0 and is trash in 2.0. The only thing that made WAR amazing in 1.0 was AoE Steel Cyclone. Single target damage output relative to dedicated DD classes like MNK and DRG in 1.0 is pretty similar to 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron

Ah, but that's only partially true. For content that required huge and quick enmity generation (Garuda comes to mind), PLD was the goto tank. I also saw PLD used in Aurum Vale most of the time, for Coincounter. WAR did only really excell when there were multiple targets or when the enemies weren't that strong. For weaker stuff like Ifrit, the choice of tank didn't matter much.

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Warrior had better burst enmity generation than PLD thanks to Antagonize. It was far more difficult to keep hate as a PLD during a MNK burn of the marlboro compared to WAR. The main reason people used PLD on Garuda was for Riot Blade's Defense Down effect and its ability to self-sustain via Aegis Boon and Holy Succor.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

This would just be straight up bad. If a tank can DPS, there's no need for DPS.

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The thing is, as mentioned before, that they couldn't tank and DD at the same time.

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Originally Posted by kro

Warrior had better burst enmity generation than PLD thanks to Antagonize. It was far more difficult to keep hate as a PLD during a MNK burn of the marlboro compared to WAR. The main reason people used PLD on Garuda was for Riot Blade's Defense Down effect and its ability to self-sustain via Aegis Boon and Holy Succor.

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Oh, I see. I only did that fight as BLM (post-nerf!), and used to be told that the reason they wanted PLD tanks was because WARs couldn't hold hate in the long run because they lack some of the tools PLD have. In either case, PLD was used for some content. Also I really miss Holy Succor. :(

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron

The thing is, as mentioned before, that they couldn't tank and DD at the same time.

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That doesn't matter. Consider this:

DKN: Deals 300 DPS, durable, can tank
DRG: Deals 300 DPS, squishy, can't tank

Who will you take? The mere reliability of DKN DPS alone makes it superior, and the ability to tank at will means you have yet another disincentive to bringing a dedicated DPS. But Gamemako, what if DRG has slightly higher DPS, I hear you say. MNK and DRG would already out-DPS BRD in 2.0, but they were still summarily ignored in favor of 2 BRD groups and essentially brought only for the LB. If a tank could do more damage than it already does, it would start taking over DPS slots because a tank is almost fool-proof. WAR can passively eat WW, DRG can't. PLD can tank any add, BLM can't.

Put simply, WAR and PLD are as close to a DPS as the design can allow. Going higher requires that they lose the ability to be MT.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

That doesn't matter. Consider this:

DKN: Deals 300 DPS, durable, can tank
DRG: Deals 300 DPS, squishy, can't tank

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ACN: Deals 9000 DPS, can heal.
THM: Deals 9000 DPS, can't heal.

WHM: Heals 9000 eHP per second, can use Cleric Stance and spam holy.
SCH: Heals 9000 eHP per second, can not (natively) use Cleric Stance.

I do not need to consider that, because I have seen it in practice, and it worked. A WAR could not deal as much damage as the DD jobs, but they didn't have to be dead weight for the parts that required only one healer. This is not the case now (I'm looking at you, Titan). They would need specialised gear to do the DD job well (and still not be as good as DRGs, MNKs, BRDs, BLMs). But the option was there, and it is not anymore.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron

ACN: Deals 9000 DPS, can heal.
THM: Deals 9000 DPS, can't heal.

WHM: Heals 9000 eHP per second, can use Cleric Stance and spam holy.
SCH: Heals 9000 eHP per second, can not (natively) use Cleric Stance.

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Except that SCH can natively use Cleric Stance, being as how they need at least lv15 Conj, and CS is unlocked at lv6. (yes I realize your example is hypothetical)

The only difference (currently) between melee DPS and WAR (or PLD for that matter) is the Class/Job stat allocations. All tank gear has STR, same as melee DPS. All tanks can wear STR accessories. Weapons have the same physical damage. Tanks will never do as much damage due to the attribute points, but they can get close for periods of burst damage. (I'm thinking WAR with Maim and Berserk up, SE debuff, and popping a mega STR potion). The ceiling for tank damage seems just about even to normal DPS damage (obviously DPS has a higher damage ceiling for burst situations)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The only difference (currently) between melee DPS and WAR (or PLD for that matter) is the Class/Job stat allocations. All tank gear has STR, same as melee DPS. All tanks can wear STR accessories.

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And I do carry DD accessories on me! It can be handy when you're fighting Atomos for example.

In 1.23, there were two stances, each of them had a bit of their own mechanics going, which made it fun and diverse to play. We could use either of the stances "Tanking" and "Damage Dealing", each played slightly differently. This is the "fun" and "diversity" I think OP is missing (and I am, too). Now we have the two stances "Tanking" and "Not Tanking", the latter removing EVERY warrior ability from our arsenal, while adding absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron

And I do carry DD accessories on me! It can be handy when you're fighting Atomos for example.

In 1.23, there were two stances, each of them had a bit of their own mechanics going, which made it fun and diverse to play. We could use either of the stances "Tanking" and "Damage Dealing", each played slightly differently. This is the "fun" and "diversity" I think OP is missing (and I am, too). Now we have the two stances "Tanking" and "Not Tanking", the latter removing EVERY warrior ability from our arsenal, while adding absolutely nothing.

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Unfortunately, I didn't ever play early versions of the game. I've seen people mentioning the old abilities and some of them do sound quite fun. But I can't compare :(

I've been playing War a lot differently recently, I think due to a combination of content and just being more comfortable knowing the role. Like switching in and out of Defiance on CT, I see a lot of Wars just keep it up the whole time even if they aren't tanking. I've been using Unchained and Berserk more frequently, and of course keeping up the SP and SE combos. I love the Ultima HM fight because I can switch off to do extra damage or switch on to Infuriate and IB and eat an orb.

I think there could be more Infuriated moves, and maybe one or two more off-GCD moves (maybe ones you can only use when not in Defiance). Maybe an actual Berserk that would make you attack like a mad man for 10 seconds (double or triple attack speed, auto-attack potency increase or damage modifier, can still move character out of danger but can't control attacks), or a something like a party Bloodbath/Bloodshower where the whole group gets heals based on damage (individual damage or group damage, healers could throw out some attacks while everyone gets little self heals).

PLD so boring lol

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron

SMN: Deals X DPS, can't heal to save its life.
BLM: Deals X DPS, can't heal to save its life.

WHM: Heals 310 ST potency per second, 136.67 AoE potency per second, can use Cleric Stance and spam holy.
SCH: Heals 340 ST potency per second, 120 AoE potency per second, can use Cleric Stance and nuke with DoTs.

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Take note of the corrections. THM is no weaker at healing than ACN, having infinite MP and access to the exact same healing spell (Physick) as ACN. All beside the point, because at endgame, SMN and BLM can't heal jack either despite both having Physick. They lack burst heals, AoE heals, and the MND to even try. Furthermore, Shadow Flare + Miasma II + Miasma + BioII + Bio + Aero are nearly as much potency as Holy spam, plus SCH has superior ST DPS which doesn't maul the caster's MP pool.

There is nothing at this time which is remotely like what you have suggested. There are no DPS jobs which can heal or tank effectively, and there are not wide gulfs between existing jobs of the same role. Titan Egi cannot hold Chirada against your healers' enmity. BLM heals an absolutely pathetic amount with Physick due to the complete lack of MND on i80+ gear. Offering even the individual utility of subbing in as minor add tank or something would be unprecedented.