So what exactly IS the issue with Warrior?

Warrior is not broken, The Coil Turn 1 fight is broken.

The developers designed it so that you are mean to feed both of the enemies the entire fight, and keep them at 1-2 stacks.

I easily tank Cadecus at 3-4 Stacks, and I die at 5. Paladins were also meant to die at 5 stacks, but at 1-2 stacks, this boss is not hard at all, just more time consuming.

To say that warrior is a Broken class, because of a preferred strategy on 1 boss fight is a joke.

Any warrior losing threat to healing in Turn 4 is also not playing correctly. The amount of extra healing required for a Warrior is almost meaningless. 1 Extra heal worth of HP after every 5 casts to keep on par is NOTHING on Threat. 1 single Overpower is enough to offset that difference.

Here is a Breakdown with more realistic numbers.

WHM Full Darklite, Thyrus.
Tanks both in 2-3/5 iLvl90 Gear.

Tanks in Equal Gear would look like this.
Warrior HP = 8500
Paladin HP = 6375

Boss hits for 3000.
Warrior takes a 3000 Hit. 8,500 - 3000 = 5500 HP Left. (64.70%)
Paladin takes a 2400 Hit. 6,375 - 2400 = 3975 HP Left. (62.35%)

White Mage heals for 2200. with Cure II. (I edited this after the original post)
Warrior gains 2530 HP. 5500 + 2530 = 8030 HP Left. (94.47%)
Paladin gains 2200 HP. 3975 + 2200 = 6175 HP Left. (96.86%)

So, if you honestly think that 2% or even 2.5% off from Max HP worth of healing required to cover the gaps is going to destroy a warrior, then you are sadly mistaken. Warrior has the higher HP needed to survive the bigger looking hits without directly mitigating them. Their form of mitigation is based on dealing more total damage (Consistently BTW!) and receiving stronger heals inherently.

If you also think that the extra healing power makes a difference in Enmity, then you are also sadly mistaken. It's not noticeable unless you are actually a bad tank, because Damage Dealers will be WAY higher on Enmity than that little bit more healing every time.

Paladins are only better because of Cool Downs, and Warriors can use Inner Beast to make up for the missing healing 3-5 fold in 1 shot.

So in the end, we could assume that we should possibly see one cooldown be added to the Warrior arsenal for those high impact damage that happens swiftly?

Sounds like there is just that one situation where you get owned in the face during those phases where the mob does a skill that can one or two shot you.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

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This is unfair... and not true.
While Caduceus hurts a lot, its nothing that a good war/sch duo cant handle.
ADS never have been an issue, not even in i70 gear. I remember having 6 stacks on me.
Finally, a war/pld setup is the best for both turn 4 and 5.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

This is unfair... and not true.
While Caduceus hurts a lot, its nothing that a good war/sch duo cant handle.
ADS never have been an issue, not even in i70 gear. I remember having 6 stacks on me.
Finally, a war/pld setup is the best for both turn 4 and 5.

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Just stating my experience. Experiences may differ you know... All I really know is the second anything is even slightly off our warrior is lying on the floor and I am left holding the ball wondering why we even bring him. Maybe it's the healers... who knows... But I do know that they keep me up just fine and constantly complain about the truckload of dmg the warrior is taking.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Just stating my experience. Experiences may differ you know... All I really know is the second anything is even slightly off our warrior is lying on the floor and I am left holding the ball wondering why we even bring him. Maybe it's the healers... who knows... But I do know that they keep me up just fine and constantly complain about the truckload of dmg the warrior is taking.

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Most healers complain about the truckload, even though Warriors don't look like they take any more damage than a paladin. When the heals go off, it's still very balanced as you can see from my example above which uses very close to reality numbers. it sounds to me like your warrior is a terrible player.

EDIT! I added %'s after the initial blow, and we actually take less damage % based initially, so unless a Pally Cooldown is in play, we still LOOK like were taking less damage overall. Emphasis on look like... hehe

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Any warrior losing threat to healing in Turn 4 is also not playing correctly. The amount of extra healing required for a Warrior is almost meaningless. 1 Extra heal worth of HP after every 5 casts to keep on par is NOTHING on Threat. 1 single Overpower is enough to offset that difference.

So, if you honestly think that 2% or even 2.5% off from Max HP worth of healing required to cover the gaps is going to destroy a warrior, then you are sadly mistaken. Warrior has the higher HP needed to survive the bigger looking hits without directly mitigating them. Their form of mitigation is based on dealing more total damage (Consistently BTW!) and receiving stronger heals inherently.

If you also think that the extra healing power makes a difference in Enmity, then you are also sadly mistaken. It's not noticeable unless you are actually a bad tank, because Damage Dealers will be WAY higher on Enmity than that little bit more healing every time.

Paladins are only better because of Cool Downs, and Warriors can use Inner Beast to make up for the missing healing 3-5 fold in 1 shot.

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Youre forgetting that at that point in the fight, the PLD will use hollowed ground to secure hate while taking 0 damage, and then when they are kiting, pop other cooldowns to reduce damage and require fewer heals. Its not the difference between healing 1 or the other, its the difference between not HAVING to heal one and healing the other (who did not have a long buffer time to secure hate). Pld puts everything on easy mode, and player strats revolve around it and warrior cant always fit the slot with the expectations that it'll perform the same way.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

Youre forgetting that at that point in the fight, the PLD will use hollowed ground to secure hate while taking 0 damage, and then when they are kiting, pop other cooldowns to reduce damage and require fewer heals. Its not the difference between healing 1 or the other, its the difference between not HAVING to heal one and healing the other (who did not have a long buffer time to secure hate). Pld puts everything on easy mode, and player strats revolve around it and warrior cant always fit the slot with the expectations that it'll perform the same way.

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I never forgot that, I mentioned it specifically. Paladin Cooldowns are the only thing that separate us. Period. Hallowed Ground is once every 5 minutes. It's 10 seconds per fight, MAYBE 20 (Not sure how long Twintania lasts) of immortality. Yes it's great. We all know. Your not opening anyone's eyes to that ability. Like we are all saying, it's Paladin Cooldowns. End of story.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Most healers complain about the truckload, even though Warriors don't look like they take any more damage than a paladin. When the heals go off, it's still very balanced as you can see from my example above which uses very close to reality numbers. it sounds to me like your warrior is a terrible player.

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Possible as well, can't really say myself. I jumped ship even though warrior was my first 50 at launch and leveled pld with only having ever did hard mode primals as a warrior. I love playing warrior but fully realize I take far less damage as a pld from my own experience. But I would not say I have enough experience at it to judge his skill.

Your example on a single hit does theoretically say that things are basically close on a single hit. The difference comes in when you start thinking about it in terms of multiple hits. Every single hit and heal rotation he is 2% further behind. 1st 2%, 2nd 4%, etc.. Where eventually it becomes an issue is that the healer needs to cast many extra heals for the warrior over the course of a long fight like a raid boss. Throw in pld's cooldowns and the pld needs 20-70-100% less healing for significant periods throughout the fight. It is not nearly as simple as comparing it on a base level as that.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

The difference comes in when you start thinking about it in terms of multiple hits. Every single hit and heal rotation he is 2% further behind. 1st 2%, 2nd 4%, etc.. Where eventually it becomes an issue is that the healer needs to cast many extra heals for the warrior over the course of a long fight like a raid boss. Throw in pld's cooldowns and the pld needs 20-70-100% less healing for significant periods throughout the fight. It is not nearly as simple as comparing it on a base level as that.

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The thing is, that 2% is a lack of 250~ HP which is undone in a single Storms Eye. and if your talking multiple Mobs, then they won't be dealing damage in those types of numbers, they will actually amount to the same 2% since that 3K hit I cited is a Cadecus 2 Stack hit. No grouping of mobs hit nearly that hard individually. I can re-do the example with Multiple mobs to show this, so give me a minute or 2. =)

5 Enemies Hitting for 300-450 each We can average that out and divive that up for ease of comparrison.

Lets just say theyre all different mobs too, so they each hit for their own value.

300
325
350
400
450

= 1825 in hits total/ 5 for each mob at a time.
=365 per mob average. So we can use that as the number to go by for What the Paladin is going to reduce by 20%. (This doesn't matter though since it's always 20% no matter what.)
Were also going to let the mobs attack twice, since my inital math was an over heal for both classes. =P

(Copy pasted base stuffs!)
WHM Full Darklite, Thyrus.
Tanks both in 2-3/5 iLvl90 Gear.

Tanks in Equal Gear would look like this.
Warrior HP = 8500
Paladin HP = 6375

Mobs hits for 365 each. (292 to the Paladin after 20%)
Warrior takes 10 hits for a total of 3650 Damage. 8,500 - 3650 = 4850 HP Left. (57.05%)
Paladin takes 10 hits for a total of 2920 Damage. 6,375 - 2920 = 3455 HP Left. (54.19%)

White Mage heals for 2200. with Cure II. (I edited this after the original post)
Warrior gains 2530 HP. 4850 + 2530 = 7380 HP Left. (86.82%)
Paladin gains 2200 HP. 3455 + 2200 = 5655 HP Left. (88.70%)

So... it's prety much looks the same, if not better for warrior. =P

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

I'll share some observations of war tanking from my own experience as the pld in a pld/war team in coil currently working on t4 :

Turn 1 :
We constantly struggle with Caduceus. After the split the warrior is constantly getting destroyed after even 2-3 stacks of the boss buff. We have had far too many wipes because he gets near 1 shotted even at low stacks. His add usually dies with him lying on the floor and someone kiting it. I can take up to 6 stacks without issue as a pld and even take 8 for the duration of hallowed ground. Even with their massive hp warriors just don't have what it takes to survive the hits on this fight.

Turn 2 :
Same thing as T1 really. On ADS if I have to dodge a mechanic and am a second or two late on the tank swap as a result it almost always ends up with the war dying even at 3-4 stacks. I have held it with no problems at 6 stacks when the situation is reversed without Hallowed Ground.

Turn 4 :
Having a warrior tank here just makes this a terrible unorganized mess. Sure he can pick up the adds real good. But the healers gain so much aggro because he needs a ton of healing. As well as many dps die because he has to kite due to the massive amounts of incoming dmg, making his aggro low. Quite often he drops like a stone when picking up his adds due to unlucky high hits from the mobs.

Sure if everything goes perfect he can tank, but there is no room for luck or error with a warrior tank.

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Turn 1: I've tanked the combined Caduceus at 3 stacks without dieing. My add has also been up to 7 stacks (which is where I died). Our first kill was the 7 stack death where my add ran back over to his other self, re-combined and then was kited around the room for about 20 seconds and died to DoTs from our Summoner.

Turn 2: This is a joke right? ADS is literally the easiest turn in coil in terms of tanking it. The Paladin has very limited advantage in this turn, as none of the attacks can be blocked and the damage is minor anyway. Most failures in this turn come from standing in bad stuff. As a Warrior I ignore repelling cannons anyway. Killed mini-ADSs at 8 stacks and have tanked the main guy up to 7 before I missed a dodge from repelling cannons and got insta-gibbed.

Turn 4: You're citing AGRO as an issue for a Warrior? And what is this 'kiting' you speak of? Stand there and tank that shit like a Warrior you big princess. You have cooldowns, make use of them. More often than not, our MT PLD is dead before I am.