Mindblowingly new-old idea-question that would reduce queue times for DD's

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Originally Posted by Amberion

I made a thread about this way back. But seems some people don't understand the ratio between tanks/healers/DD.

Anyway, I also find it odd that they went with a 4 player party.

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The answer is simple: programming. If you make a bigger party you'd have to give more characters crowd-control (CC) abilities. Otherwise, you'd have to overpower the healer and tank so they can heal/tank through a 4-5 man pull instead of 2-3. Considering how impatienet the typical MMO player is today even the current dungeons are too long. Why would you program something that would take them longer to complete? So they chose a 4-man party.

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Originally Posted by Ralemont

Think of it in terms of cheeseburgers. You have 10 buns, 10 slices of cheese, 35 patties. With this you can make 10 double cheeseburgers...or 10 triple cheeseburgers. In the latter scenario you have the same amount of sandwiches made, but instead of having 15 patties sitting around not being eaten, now you only have 5.

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This analogy works great for dead pieces of meat, not so much for people.

People that came to this game intending to tank rolled a tank.

People that switched to a tank at a later point were likely either:
1. Tired of long queues
2. Tired of bad tanks
3. Pressured into tanking by FC mates/friends

Larger group sizes aren't going to do much for this. I've tanked in games with 4/5/6 man groups and it's always quick groups for tanks, medium speed for heals, and slow groups for dps.

Small groups fill faster (I don't think anyone can argue it's faster to pull 4 people together than 6 people). They require a bigger percentage of responsibility from each member, especially dps. They're also better for smaller sets of friends and guilds.

It doesn't matter how large a force you're trying to put together, if you're smart about it you'll always gather the pivot roles first then fill in with the less key positions(usually dps) after filling those roles.

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Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

This analogy works great for dead pieces of meat, not so much for people.

People that came to this game intending to tank rolled a tank.

Larger group sizes aren't going to do much for this. I've tanked in games with 4/5/6 man groups and it's always quick groups for tanks, medium speed for heals, and slow groups for dps.

Small groups fill faster (I don't think anyone can argue it's faster to pull 4 people together than 6 people). They require a bigger percentage of responsibility from each member, especially dps. They're also better for smaller sets of friends and guilds.

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Small groups (4) are going to fill no faster than larger groups (6) if you're adding 2 DPS slots and there are a backlog of queue'd DPS, which was the point of the analogy. The analogy works with a set population for all three roles, and shows how expanding the party can satisfy a larger % of the population.

The only party that could possibly see longer gather time is the last one if the DPS population gets exhausted, which I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen even with a 4:1:1 ratio.

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Originally Posted by Ralemont

Small groups (4) are going to fill no faster than larger groups (6) if you're adding 2 DPS slots and there are a backlog of queue'd DPS, which was the point of the analogy. The analogy works with a set population for all three roles, and shows how expanding the party can satisfy a larger % of the population.

The only party that could possibly see longer gather time is the last one if the DPS population gets exhausted, which I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen even with a 4:1:1 ratio.

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And my argument is that a large influence on how many people switch from dps to tanks/heals is based on scarcity of tanks/heals.

This is always a problem in every game, the only solution is to tank/heal yourself or get a friend to tank/heal.

Edit: I'm also assuming you're putting together a group yourself. I'll concede that queue times would most likely drop for dps if there were more slots per tank/healer in an auto-filled group.

While the argument about having to rebalance current content for differing party sizes is valid.

4-person -> 6-person
8-person -> 12-person
24-person -> 24-person!!!

Would it not be easier to do now, rather than when more content is added. There are only a few events that need to be adjusted now, as compared to how it would be later.

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Also, think about MMO-Archtypes..

Tank- I want to protect my friends.
Healer- I want to heal and restore my friends.
DD- I wanna kill stuff.

Which group do you think players gravitate towards more easily?

While yes, there will always be a tank/healer bottleneck, a larger party allows more along for the ride per run.

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Rather than a cheeseburger, think of an instance like a bus for a field trip.

The bus requires a driver, and a teacher to lead the trip.
Then students.

Currently we have a bus with seating for 4.
If we had seating for 6, more students could go per bus.

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With the arguments about needing super-powered healers and tanks because of the additional dps output.

Why?

Every player has their own hate bar, and should be managing it. Just because there are 2 more people with hate bars does not mean the tank has to work any harder.

This would apply some to fights where everyone is hit (like titan), so it could put more stain on healers, but in runs like these, perhaps run with an extra healer like people do now, with 3/8 being healers.

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Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

And my argument is that a large influence on how many people switch from dps to tanks/heals is based on scarcity of tanks/heals.

This is always a problem in every game, the only solution is to tank/heal yourself or get a friend to tank/heal.

Edit: I'm also assuming you're putting together a group yourself. I'll concede that queue times would most likely drop for dps if there were more slots per tank/healer in an auto-filled group.

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It is for those people in DF that this was written for, and this is proof that there is more than one solution.

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Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

And my argument is that a large influence on how many people switch from dps to tanks/heals is based on scarcity of tanks/heals.

This is always a problem in every game, the only solution is to tank/heal yourself or get a friend to tank/heal.

Edit: I'm also assuming you're putting together a group yourself. I'll concede that queue times would most likely drop for dps if there were more slots per tank/healer in an auto-filled group.

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But those people who would prefer to DPS but switched to tank/healer to get parties now might not have to, because the ratio of DPS to healer/tank in a party is closer to the ratio of the overall population. Isn't that preferable to someone who hates tanking, tanking because they want to do the content?

And I assumed this thread was about DF because of the "queue" discussion. For shout groups it might take longer, but I doubt by very much.

On top of this I would really like to see the DF be more intelligent when queueing for fights.

For instance: Titan/Praetorium is clearly specifically designed for only a single tank, the DF should be preprogrammed to not fill groups for dungeons/trials like this with 2 tanks.

Each listing on the DF should put parties together based on what the actual content was designed to have, not simply a generic 2x(1:1:2) party layout.

In the case of say, a 12 man titan, it should still be more like 1 tank, 3 healers, 8 dps instead of 2 tanks 2 healers 8 dps which is what would happen in this 6 man scenario.

roll a tank, farm tokens and use the tokens you farmed for your dps
???
profit

actually, this idea is not that bad....

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Originally Posted by Ralemont

But those people who would prefer to DPS but switched to tank/healer to get parties now might not have to, because the ratio of DPS to healer/tank in a party is closer to the ratio of the overall population. Isn't that preferable to someone who hates tanking, tanking because they want to do the content?

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And for every 2 DPS that didn't switch over to tank/healer you'd have 4 dps in the population that weren't able to be supported in the 6 party system. My point being is that due to the human factor of the population involved, simply reducing the ratio of tank/healer to dps guarantees nothing.

The bolded part is the part of the argument that I can really get behind and the ideal situation would be group make ups that reflected the population of the game. In reality though, the group make up of any game will never permanently hit this, so someone is always going to have to step up and play their 2nd or third or even last choice for the good of the many.

That's the crux of a team game that is MMORPGs.

On a personal level, if your playing a class that has less demand than other classes, you either deal with the lesser demand or you switch to a class with higher demand.
On a team level, if no one can fill a pivot role, someone has to switch to that pivot role or no one gets to play.