11647 HP lol

I don't understand why you can't let the guy have his fun.... Put your e-peens away. It's not like you have to party with him.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

I don't understand why you can't let the guy have his fun.... Put your e-peens away. It's not like you have to party with him.

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A lot of Warriors are too busy crying because they got shafted in Coil for 2.0 and Paladins are too busy wanting to gloat about being the optimal tank. Tank forum is very much a no fun zone until Warrior gets a buff in 2.1, then we'll probably just see the reverse or both jobs claiming to be better in certain instances.

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Originally Posted by GerokWest

http://i.imgur.com/f0Al6U8.jpg

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For what reason?! XD That is too funny/awesome. Nice work there dude. I see you have "Break HP limit" on your armor. :P

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Originally Posted by Thyrllan

You are making a lot of assumptions on two classes you aren't level 50 on.

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I have said this before in another thread I don't play on this account that often. I mainly play on a shared account. So you are making a lot of assumptions yourself. Try judging people based on the merits of their posts than making rushed conclusions by judging profiles.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

Spoiler: this whole game is math; sentinel alone is better than the picture, because it doesn't require extra healing to get you back to that EHP unlike the Warrior.

For all intents and purposes this (all really) game's reality IS maths.

These disingenuous attempts to claim theory-crafting is invalid due to *practicality* (which is synonymous with *reality* in this circumstance), which is then never backed up with any form of elaboration is pretty poor form. It's nonsensical rhetoric, that is quite frankly not too surprising to hear.

Try backing it up next time with some points, it'd be more interesting than you just attempting give a 'witty' one liner and jacking yourself off to how you 'smasht me' (I recognise there may be traces of irony here :P).

I think that original quote was more a jab at me but I'm not sure either way. Math is a GREAT tool and yes it is the basis of all game mechanics but it is not the end all and be all of game play. And since people around here LOVE their tests, I have a very simple, near fool-proof 3 step test you can run that proves this:
Step 1 - Get an equally geared WAR and PLD.
Step 2 - Have each one engage a mob of the same or higher level.
And the last and most important part of the test
Step 3 - Have both players put down the controller.

Now if you have performed this test correctly you will find that both classes perform equally poorly. While the game and all of it's mechanics are programmed with math, it is not until the HUMAN element is introduced that the math involved is given any purpose. In this case the classes are merely tools and a tool is only as efficient as the person using it. This is usually translated by the common saying it is the player that makes the class not the class that makes the player.

The other hole in theory crafting is the fact that they strip down so many mechanics to their smallest most rudimentary forms to make them fit in their simplified equations. To keep their numbers as pure as possible they create them in a vacuum and keep all the variables as uniformed as possible. And when you get into actual game play they very rarely follow the uniformed variables and have a more organic flow of battle. Sometimes the key to winning a battle is not sticking with the math but knowing when to take a gamble and how to capitalize on random opportunities. Whether its pulling back your healing from a string of lucky crits or dodges to adapt to a healer that is distracted in real life or getting hit with an AoE because of an unexpected lag spike. There are all sorts of random elements that occur during a battle. This is even more true for WAR and is why I enjoy playing them as their style of combat does have a more organic flow of battle. I have the exact same rotation every battle and the game plan can change in a single global cooldown. But is the game so complicated that every single opportunity and random event will have a huge impact on the fight? No which leads me to my next point.

Most over-zealous theory-crafters act as if you HAVE to be operating and maximum efficiency at ALL times to clear content. Yes, for some people maximizing efficiency and having fun are the same thing but that is not the case for everyone. There will always be two-sides the gaming coin. Fun vs Efficiency. There are those who play purely for fun, for example the the DRK's in FFXI who had /p "Tear my heart into pieces this is my....Last Resort!" macros. Did they care they were using Last Resort at the most inopportune times? No. All they care about is having fun and using all the 'kewl moves' that makes them feel like a badass. And on the other side of the spectrum you have your hardcore min/maxers who shun anything that isn't mathematically proven to be superior. The fact is BOTH sides have their flaws and the honest truth of it all is that most people don't fall on one side or the other but find themselves some where in the middle.

Most developers know this so they do not make content where you have to be 100% efficient to beat it. If all players are familiar with the fight mechanics and know their roles most content you can get away with operating at 60-75% efficiency and still be perfectly fine. After this 'efficiency cap' what determines a class being 'better' is subjective. If you enjoy easy gameplay with as little challenge as possible. Then yes... for your purposes PLD is better. But 'easy' is not fun for everyone. For me personally I am happy around the 80% mark its efficient enough to get things done in an orderly fashion but still flexible enough that I don't feel like a mindless robot executing stale-repetitive gameplay. I am in the casualcore group, I'm a hardcore player but i'm not willing to pass the point where it compromises my concept of what I find fun and enjoyable. And the fact is I am not the only one. For every person on here QQ'ing about WAR there is at least 2-3 others that are actually in the game enjoying the class as it is now. There are people clearing Coil with WAR and doing a good job of it who haven't done an ounce of math. Heck I know one WAR in one of my LS's that honestly is a much better WAR than I and when I try to talk shop with them about, how to maximuze damage per tp use and different stages of eHP of WAR she acts like I'm talking klingon but despite not knowing any math on the class they play it exceptionally well.

The sum it all up, just because something is the best or better option doesn't make it the ONLY option. There are lots of ways to play the game and different people have different goals, objectives and principles when it comes to gaming. Some people are willing to sacrifice a little efficiency if it means they can have more fun. Some people are willing to sacrifice a little fun if they can be more efficient. End of the day neither side is wrong. As far as I am concerned there is only two objectives people should be concerned with, if they can clear content and if they can have fun doing it. If you can do those two things no one has any right to tell you you are doing it wrong and if they do funk'em.

That analogy doesn't hold, because in this circumstance the Sedan (PLD) still out-performs the sports car (WAR). Sure the sports car is harder to drive, but it's plain inferior, who the hell buys a sports car worse than a Sedan?

Additionally, you may enjoy playing a WAR, more power to you. I personally, enjoy winning most of all, to borrow your analogy; I'll take the Sedan and learn (TBH I've already mastered WAR, but whatever) the sports cars nuances when it provides me with a benefit. That's my EPS right there. If you're chugging along on the street, sure performance don't mean shit, use the fun car. But if you're in a race, then you'll want the top performer.

Finally, and I hate (I really do) to bring this up. But mate, my Warrior was great fun right up until (H) Titan as well. As soon as I realised I became a liability, I stopped having so much fun, when I realised other people in my group may not appreciate me dragging them down due to my self-fish *but I wanna play WAR* attitude. This is a sacrifice I'm willing to make, because then I can demand my other group mates min-max as well, so it works for me.

I recognise this may be an alt (for the purposes of trapping people into an assumption), so ignore it if you have actual Coil experience and go about driving your (manual) Ford Laser.

Well this is where I have to touch on the above a little bit. "Performance' in this case is subjective. It depends on what you want to do with it. Honestly the family Sedan is much more stable machinery than a sports car. Sure they are fast and have the tuning and accessories required to handle going at those fast paces but for the average person when do you ever really need to exceed 100mph? Further more they are very fuel hungry and upkeep and repair is not a walk in the park. "Performance" in this analogy is all in WHAT you want the car to do and the tasks you want to be able to achieve with it. Sport cars cost more money than they are actually useful for. Yes, you can go really fast but that is more a luxury than a necessity.

In this case the 'Performance' is the fun factor of playing the class. For me, WAR is hands down A LOT more fun to play than PLD. But like a sport's car WAR that fun doesn't come without a price. It is harder to maintain, is very fuel efficient, and mistakes are more costly and easier to make. Ultimately it is a personal choice of what tank you decide to 'drive'. Like I said I have some cool ass daredevil healers who enjoy riding shotgun with my WAR, not everyone is allergic to having to put actual effort into things... and prepare yourself some people actually enjoy it. And honestly while a PLD can do the job much easier it doesn't mean a WAR is incapable of getting the job done. I have only found two occasions where WAR is a liability 1. If they are attempting to main tank in Coil. and 2. If the player/party allows it to be. Outside of that any capable WAR is able to make genuine contribution to clearing any and all content in the game.


I might as well tackle this while I'm at it. I enjoy working with my healers too, that's why I can tank a six stack Caduceus, because my healer and I work very well with each other. As a PLD I simply take it to the next level and ignore mechanics (hence the complaining, so broken), I still work...sort of XD.

@Bolded section, I agree. It still doesn't undo the simple disparity between the tanks.

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This actually reminds me of an argument I'm having in the GTA V Online forums about Free Aim vs. Auto Aim. As I am in the free aim camp as I don't see the fun in having a game mechanic that basically plays the game for you. I like a certain degree of control and I feel a lot of PLD's mechanics that game play takes a backseat while the cooldowns do all the heavy lifting. Not to say that PLD is not without it's complexities but they are more on the optional side than anything else. Again this is another example of way PLD is 'EASIER' but like I said before easier =/= better.

And the disparity between tanks only becomes an issue in the coil. And after adjusting to the learn curve and getting appropriate gear it only really stays an issue when attempting to function as a main tank. And that is something the developers have already said they are working on. Outside of that WAR is capable of clearing content.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

I have said this before in another thread I don't play on this account that often. I mainly play on a shared account. So you are making a lot of assumptions yourself. Try judging people based on the merits of their posts than making rushed conclusions by judging profiles.

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I made one assumption, and a reasonable one at that. Experience also lends a great deal to posts.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

I think that original quote was more a jab at me but I'm not sure either way. Math is a GREAT tool and yes it is the basis of all game mechanics but it is not the end all and be all of game play. And since people around here LOVE their tests, I have a very simple, near fool-proof 3 step test you can run that proves this:
Step 1 - Get an equally geared WAR and PLD.
Step 2 - Have each one engage a mob of the same or higher level.
And the last and most important part of the test
Step 3 - Have both players put down the controller.

Now if you have performed this test correctly you will find that both classes perform equally poorly. While the game and all of it's mechanics are programmed with math, it is not until the HUMAN element is introduced that the math involved is given any purpose. In this case the classes are merely tools and a tool is only as efficient as the person using it. This is usually translated by the common saying it is the player that makes the class not the class that makes the player.

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This is an intuition pump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_pump), and quite frankly annoys the shit out of me to read.

Your little thought experiment completely ignores the reasons WHY a PLD is superior to WAR. In case you don't know I'll explain why;

1. Shield Oath scales indirectly with healing. Aka no extra healing is equired to give them back their 25% bonus HP granted by Shield Oath. Unlike Defiance.

2. PLD's cool-down suite is god-tier for mitigating damage.

Both of these, as you mentioned need human input to see effectiveness. But the point is this; no amount of human input can make this happen for a WAR. No amount of human input can bridge this mathematical chasm. Yes good healers and not being a retard tank can help see this gap closed. But if you played a PLD you could do it even better. Once again with your analogy about tools; give someone a hand-saw, give the other a chainsaw, lets see who cuts down the 100 year old tree first, it doesn't matter how good the guy with the hand-saw is, he won't beat the guy with the chainsaw. And if it's close due to the immense skill of the hand-saw guy, give him a chainsaw, he'll cut down a forest in that time. Yes there is a great deal of hyperbole, but hopefully the mental illustration will help come to grips with my point.

Additionally, it's incorrect a PLD would still live ~6% longer on average due to block.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

The other hole in theory crafting is the fact that they strip down so many mechanics to their smallest most rudimentary forms to make them fit in their simplified equations. To keep their numbers as pure as possible they create them in a vacuum and keep all the variables as uniformed as possible. And when you get into actual game play they very rarely follow the uniformed variables and have a more organic flow of battle. Sometimes the key to winning a battle is not sticking with the math but knowing when to take a gamble and how to capitalize on random opportunities. Whether its pulling back your healing from a string of lucky crits or dodges to adapt to a healer that is distracted in real life or getting hit with an AoE because of an unexpected lag spike. There are all sorts of random elements that occur during a battle. This is even more true for WAR and is why I enjoy playing them as their style of combat does have a more organic flow of battle. I have the exact same rotation every battle and the game plan can change in a single global cooldown. But is the game so complicated that every single opportunity and random event will have a huge impact on the fight? No which leads me to my next point.

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For all your arguments about ignoring theory crafting, when these 'organic' situations occur, the PLD is better equipped to deal with them. I don't play with a calculator at hand, I play intuitively like most people, but I use theory-crafting to better understand the situations limits as well as mine. Your argument doesn't hold because the WAR offers nothing in a shit-hits-the-fan moment that a PLD does.

Additionally, it is a flaw in theory-crafting yes, but it's still infinitely more accurate than relying on the 'experience of the general gaming populous'. If I wanted everybodies 'feelings' on the subject, then I agree theory-crafting is useless, but we're talking about a game based on maths here, thus maths is the best form of prediction.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

Most over-zealous theory-crafters act as if you HAVE to be operating and maximum efficiency at ALL times to clear content. Yes, for some people maximizing efficiency and having fun are the same thing but that is not the case for everyone. There will always be two-sides the gaming coin. Fun vs Efficiency. There are those who play purely for fun, for example the the DRK's in FFXI who had /p "Tear my heart into pieces this is my....Last Resort!" macros. Did they care they were using Last Resort at the most inopportune times? No. All they care about is having fun and using all the 'kewl moves' that makes them feel like a badass. And on the other side of the spectrum you have your hardcore min/maxers who shun anything that isn't mathematically proven to be superior. The fact is BOTH sides have their flaws and the honest truth of it all is that most people don't fall on one side or the other but find themselves some where in the middle.

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So wait wait wait. If I understand this correctly, you reject the entire notion because of individual actions? This is a huge logical inconsistency, you can't hold an independent structure accountable for the actions of individuals who use it to behave like an ass. Especially when that structure is literally value neutral. Maths doesn't possess people to be ass-hats, I mean their interaction with maths may inspire them, but again not the maths as a structure's fault.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

Most developers know this so they do not make content where you have to be 100% efficient to beat it. If all players are familiar with the fight mechanics and know their roles most content you can get away with operating at 60-75% efficiency and still be perfectly fine. After this 'efficiency cap' what determines a class being 'better' is subjective. If you enjoy easy gameplay with as little challenge as possible. Then yes... for your purposes PLD is better. But 'easy' is not fun for everyone. For me personally I am happy around the 80% mark its efficient enough to get things done in an orderly fashion but still flexible enough that I don't feel like a mindless robot executing stale-repetitive gameplay. I am in the casualcore group, I'm a hardcore player but i'm not willing to pass the point where it compromises my concept of what I find fun and enjoyable. And the fact is I am not the only one. For every person on here QQ'ing about WAR there is at least 2-3 others that are actually in the game enjoying the class as it is now. There are people clearing Coil with WAR and doing a good job of it who haven't done an ounce of math. Heck I know one WAR in one of my LS's that honestly is a much better WAR than I and when I try to talk shop with them about, how to maximuze damage per tp use and different stages of eHP of WAR she acts like I'm talking klingon but despite not knowing any math on the class they play it exceptionally well.

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Theory-crafting helps understanding, not intuitive play. Do you think a tennis professional has a physicists knowledge of how the ball will fly when they hit it? No, they will have some knowledge, but the level in which they truely understand is one almost impossible to express with words. You can be ignorant of these facts and still be a champion, no-one argued you can't. PLD just makes it much easier to be that champion, because now your Tennis racket doesn't have holes in it. Theory-crafting is a tool to better understand your environment, its affect on actual intuitive game-play is rare beyond the preparation stage. Not really a counter-point, just getting on my soap-box as well.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

The sum it all up, just because something is the best or better option doesn't make it the ONLY option. There are lots of ways to play the game and different people have different goals, objectives and principles when it comes to gaming. Some people are willing to sacrifice a little efficiency if it means they can have more fun. Some people are willing to sacrifice a little fun if they can be more efficient. End of the day neither side is wrong. As far as I am concerned there is only two objectives people should be concerned with, if they can clear content and if they can have fun doing it. If you can do those two things no one has any right to tell you you are doing it wrong and if they do funk'em.

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So if I can understand this correctly. You're denying the mathematical proof of WAR's being inferior on the basis of you having fun playing a WAR? Seriously correct me if I'm wrong. Because nobody cares if you're having fun, go have fun, I encourage you to enjoy yourself. It still in no world or the next undo the simple proof. Warriors. Are. Inferior. At. Mitigating. Damage. No amount of feelings can change this.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

This actually reminds me of an argument I'm having in the GTA V Online forums about Free Aim vs. Auto Aim. As I am in the free aim camp as I don't see the fun in having a game mechanic that basically plays the game for you. I like a certain degree of control and I feel a lot of PLD's mechanics that game play takes a backseat while the cooldowns do all the heavy lifting. Not to say that PLD is not without it's complexities but they are more on the optional side than anything else. Again this is another example of way PLD is 'EASIER' but like I said before easier =/= better.

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Your analogy (more of a story) aside. You're missing the causation effect, PLD's are easier mostly because they are leagues better. They are not better because they are easier. If you made them worse, they'd be easier than a WAR, but not by the margin they are now. In this circumstance; better typically does mean easier, because you can perform your role with less confounding variables, while easier does not typically mean better.

Warrior's really aren't that much harder to play than Paladins. And if you're ever on silence duty or interrupt duty a PLD's (I do both at 50) job is actually harder. The only complicated part of playing a Warrior is knowing when to Inner Beast and your rotations are a little more complex. Maybe for the less...'skilled' (euphemisms for the sensitive) player it may be a 'challenge', but it's mechanically and intellectually less demanding than a PLD doing any extraneous duties. Typically speaking proactive cool-downs are harder because of the need to predict incoming damage, than reactive ones.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

Well this is where I have to touch on the above a little bit. "Performance' in this case is subjective. It depends on what you want to do with it. Honestly the family Sedan is much more stable machinery than a sports car. Sure they are fast and have the tuning and accessories required to handle going at those fast paces but for the average person when do you ever really need to exceed 100mph? Further more they are very fuel hungry and upkeep and repair is not a walk in the park. "Performance" in this analogy is all in WHAT you want the car to do and the tasks you want to be able to achieve with it. Sport cars cost more money than they are actually useful for. Yes, you can go really fast but that is more a luxury than a necessity.

In this case the 'Performance' is the fun factor of playing the class. For me, WAR is hands down A LOT more fun to play than PLD. But like a sport's car WAR that fun doesn't come without a price. It is harder to maintain, is very fuel efficient, and mistakes are more costly and easier to make. Ultimately it is a personal choice of what tank you decide to 'drive'. Like I said I have some cool ass daredevil healers who enjoy riding shotgun with my WAR, not everyone is allergic to having to put actual effort into things... and prepare yourself some people actually enjoy it. And honestly while a PLD can do the job much easier it doesn't mean a WAR is incapable of getting the job done. I have only found two occasions where WAR is a liability 1. If they are attempting to main tank in Coil. and 2. If the player/party allows it to be. Outside of that any capable WAR is able to make genuine contribution to clearing any and all content in the game.

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I don't even understand how that makes your analogy relevant. I thought my point was relatively clear, but this illustrates you missed it and instead attempted to defend your analogy. Let me reiterate; If you want to do non top-tier content, you can do it with any class - hell you can do AK/CM/WP with no tank - nobody argued you can't. Hence the chugging on the street part? Everybody complains about when you want to bring WAR to a race PLD's go better, faster and longer and the WAR has to ride in its slipstream the whole way. You seriously need to familiarise yourself with the arguments first before you make a quasi-attempt at debunking them and getting bogged down in overly complicated analogies (which are supposed to illustrate an argument for better transmission). Performance is far from subjective, because one class blatantly 'performs' the same role better

Also can you not talk about quantifying factors for performance (aka it's actual reality based attributes, speed, fuel efficiency, etc.) and say performance means how good it is at its role; then turn around and say performance is fun because I subjectively determined its performance = how much fun I'm having. It's confusing and poorly thought-out, all you've done is confuse your already confusing analogy more.

ADS doesn't die because of how much fun you're having. We need some baseline to determine how good something is at a role so someone other than ourselves can understand what the fuck you mean. Thus, as a tank performance is based on how slow ADS kills your ass. Because otherwise your argument is literally just a classic (though boring) attempt at your trying to use the word subjective to undermine any kind of argument based an already agreed upon understanding. Often this is done by people who misunderstand subjectivity and think you can just substitute it in as some sort of 'ace-in-the-hole'. We're not arguing philosophy or sociology here, so stop it.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

And the disparity between tanks only becomes an issue in the coil. And after adjusting to the learn curve and getting appropriate gear it only really stays an issue when attempting to function as a main tank. And that is something the developers have already said they are working on. Outside of that WAR is capable of clearing content.

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This is essentially the crux of the argument. Having one tank blatantly unable to perform the other half of its role is somewhat of a concern for anybody serious about progression.

TL;DR: Have fun, have as much as you want, more power to ya. It still does not undo the plain simple truth. And the word 'subjective' doesn't undo that fact.

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Originally Posted by Junk4Brains

To me the comparison between PLD and WAR has always been akin to comparing an automatic family sedan to a manual transmission performance tuned sports car.

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More like the PLD and WAR is akin to a blue automatic family sedan that runs at 30 mpg, with an optional model that uses a stick shift vs. a red automatic family sedan that runs at 25 mpg, with an optional model that uses a stick shift.

Both are braindead easy if you want it to be. Both can have a helluva lot of nuance if you want it to be. Some people prefer red, some people prefer blue, others like both, and others don't care. But, one clearly outperforms the other at its role.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

1. Shield Oath scales indirectly with healing. Aka no extra healing is equired to give them back their 25% bonus HP granted by Shield Oath. Unlike Defiance.

2. PLD's cool-down suite is god-tier for mitigating damage.

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Here's some things to think about.

1. Defiance also scales with incoming heals. Wrath stacks give Warriors increased incoming heals. PLDs get hit for less, WARs get healed for more. If this had been tested/balanced properly, the healing increase would be 25% and not 15% like it is currently.

2. Even with a deficit of 10% healing received to make up the difference, a lot of this difference is lost to overhealing, and it really makes almost no difference at all.

3. The cooldowns are what makes the PLD class strong. But what happens when you don't have one available? At this point you are basically a Warrior who can't heal himself. Granted this shouldn't be a problem with a competent group, but you should be able to see my point.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

1. Defiance also scales with incoming heals. Wrath stacks give Warriors increased incoming heals. PLDs get hit for less, WARs get healed for more. If this had been tested/balanced properly, the healing increase would be 25% and not 15% like it is currently.

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Honest to goodness, after slamming out what constitutes an essay, you don't think I'm aware of this fact?

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Originally Posted by Paikis

2. Even with a deficit of 10% healing received to make up the difference, a lot of this difference is lost to overhealing, and it really makes almost no difference at all.

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10% extra healing received makes *almost* no difference at all, you heard it here first folks. It makes a huge difference when DTPS gets absurd, which it does a lot in Coil.

Let me put it another way. The extra mitigation from Shield Oath never goes away. The mitigation from Defiance disappears the moment that extra 25% HP is gone, it needs to be re-healed back and it is the difference between the two to do it (assuming 15% Wrath stacks 24/7), this may or may not cost more - never less, thus an advantage, not a liability - mana depending on the DTPS, but the more DTPS the more heals and this continues to accelerate. WAR is a mana sponge.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

3. The cooldowns are what makes the PLD class strong. But what happens when you don't have one available? At this point you are basically a Warrior who can't heal himself. Granted this shouldn't be a problem with a competent group, but you should be able to see my point.

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Reductionist logic, taken to a cliff and pushed off. Exact same logic applies to a Warrior but worse, because they have less CD's and each individual one is worse. IB being the only saving grace, but IB doesn't make up the difference as a WAR has to sacrifice his stacks for IB, the gap is greater than you make out. Meanwhile Shield Oath is still rippin' shit up and oh yeah, he's blocking (to say nothing of blind).

It has been beaten to death, but the equalizer of Defiance vs Shield Oath + Shield Block SHOULD'VE been the healing bonus, but the fact you have to sacrifice it for your main form of mitigation puts WAR on worse ground than PLD. If they do give them a flat HP healing bonus with Defiance, independent of Wrath, it would be great. It's possible they do this, considering YoshiP addressed the idea of Warriors losing healing by using their healing abilities and this being a problem. Who knows.