XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Now, I'm no mathematician like the OP but I'm pretty sure a 500-700 heal every 120s / Bloodbath (30s up time 60s down time) and a thrill of battle every 120s isn't going to close the mitigation gap between warrior and paladin.

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It depends on how much the pld is mitigating.

PLD's mitigation varies with incoming dmg. it's % based. if it's 10% per second for example against 100dps incoming he mitigates 10dps. Against 1000 it's 100dps ps mitigated.

A WAR's self heal is a fixed mitigation (assuming the perfect rotation here if there is such a thing). If a war self heals 50ps (just an example). He is more effective than the pld when the incoming dmg is 100 and less effective when its at 1000.

One is a fixed ammount one is variable to incoming.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Your math is horrible.
(snipped)
35500 healed WHILE doing damage to the mob in the process. In JUST Self heals in JUST 5 minutes
if you extended that fight by just 1 minute that number jumps to well over 41,000 due to some of our cooldowns being on 2 minute timers

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OK, so what you're saying is... 35500 over 300 seconds, or 41000 over 360 seconds.
41000/360 = Maximum average of 113 DPS mitigated by WAR's self-healing.


PLD's Shield Oath BY ITSELF cuts incoming damage by 20%, so the Break even point for PLD Shield Oath > WAR Self-Healing would be 113/0.2 = anything above 565 DPS received.

The numbers Hachiko quoted above give a ~16% incoming mitigation number for PLD on top of Shield Oath via all PLD's active mitigation abilities.

How hard do endgame mobs hit? (Serious question)

Both WAR and PLD can use Convalescence and Foresight and Bloodbath.
Both can Parry. PLD can also Shield Block.
Both have Stuns.
WAR can use Featherfoot and Holmgang.
PLD can use Sentinel and Rampart and Bulwark and Hallowed Ground and Rage of Halone's debuff (and Stoneskin/Cure/Protect...)

Terabyt3 has it right above - I'm genuinely confused as to how you're claiming that WAR's static levels of damage mitigation (the maximum amount of HP you can recover per second will remain largely the same regardless of how much damage you are taking. At low levels of incoming damage you are effectively immortal, but as more damage is received you become much worse off) can make up for PLD's scaling mitigation (the % of damage mitigated remains constant, so greater levels of incoming damage results in greater amounts of damage being mitigated)....? :confused:

The only way to balance the two classes in reality is to make some of wars self heal abilities scale according to incoming damage in the same way that pld dmg mitigation does.

At the minute PLD to WAR at low incoming dmg means war takes lkess healing like i said above but because of the effectiveness of healing it doesnt really shine.

PLD's will tank better on harder hitting mobs until WAR no longer has a fixed number s its mitigation.#


The only two things that will vary a WAR's ability to offput incoming dmg will be crit rate and parry rate (but since parry rate is not higher than a pld's you don't have to take it into account when comparing)

My fix would be just to simply make warrior's healing attacks scale based on their max hp on top of a damage based amount. Something like 15% max hp plus 200% damage. That and they could always open up rampart and fight or flight as cross class abilities that warrior could take. Also personally I think defiance needs a small rework to be more like the paladin stances. It needs an innate benefit for just being up that is not dependent on wrath stacks, such as a base 10% extra healing received with more gained per wrath stack. Of course the numbers I'm throwing out here are in no way intended to be balanced, they are just random rough ideas.

WAR needs mitigation that scales with incoming DPS like PLD does in the form of block and parry%. Currently WAR only has Parry.

They could make a war trait simply double the parry rate and make it a parry tank like 1.0 again.

PLD blocks and parries and reduces incoming damage with cooldowns

WAR parries twice as much (to the equivelent of plds block and parry combined) and heals incoming dmg.

Even then they will still not be even at higher incoming dps but it would make the gap significantly less

Actually to fix war i'd say add a line onto Defiance.

"All of your actions that generate HP (Bloodbath, IB, Storms Path) scale depending on how much damage you have sustained over the last 10 seconds."

There you go. WAR's mitigation now scales according to incoming damage just like PLD's.

Whereas PLD is a defensive tank popping cooldowns mainly to counteract WAR becomes offensive and has to maintain rotations and TP to keep itself up in the mitigation charts.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

UP TO, 25% damage reduced with 405 STR from parry.
Parry procs roughly 17-25% of the time depending on how much Parry+ gear and dex you have. 211 dex seems to be the good number.

THAT WORKS OUT TO... AN AVERAGE OF 15% OF ALL DAMAGE - OVER A LONG TIME - REDUCED. *sigh*

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How badly do you suck at math that you think that .25 * .25 = 15% instead of the 6.25% that it actually does.

Also, I'm reasonably confident that you can't parry magic so it's nowhere *near* "all damage".

I'm also curious where exactly you get the "WAR gets bigger Parry+" from. PLD and WAR use the same gear. They have exactly the same base Parry (I just checked in game). Unless WAR magically gets more out of the same quantity of Parry (which is indicated absolutely nowhere), WAR and PLD have the exact same Parry.

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Your math is horrible. 3 bonus to heal abilities? Last I checked we get 6.

You completely forgot about Thrill of Battle which is 1000+ HP every 120 seconds.
You completely forgot about the utility to stun for 5 SOLID SECONDS every 30 seconds and the minimum 15.7% parry rate for a minimum of 23% damage reduction at level 50 with no good gear and AF.
You used stormspath and calculated it out (NO ONE WOULD EVER DO THIS). THE ONLY GOOD use of PATH at 50, is to use as the first of three combos during bloodbath to get 75% damage as health, additional wrath, and MAIM.
You completely forgot about Berzerk + Second Wind (which is 500 minimum every 120 seconds, or if you rather, 500 every 120, 360+ every 90)
You completely forgot about Foresite, and it's 20% defense buff, which we can use as often as Rampart, during all of this, and it stacks with protect.
And your numbers for actual reduction INCLUDED BLOCK, but you didn't include PARRY FROM WAR.

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True, i forgot Thrill of Battle.
Stun? can i Stun Titan or Garuda?
Like i said, i didnt know what Parry Rate we have, thats why i did not Count. Paladin have also a Blockrate, the Skill increase it with 60% more, so they would have what? 75% for 15sec? Do Paladin has Parry also or only Block?
I didnt Count Foresight because i did not know, how much dmg reduce 20% defense is, and beside... doesnt matter, because Paladin can use it too, he has better Convalsence, he can use Bloodbath.
and even if we Count everything, and everything also by Paladin. result will be the same. Or even worse for Warrior.

Do you really think, your healer feels something, when teh mob attacks you everytime with 1666dmg, and you heal yourself up with 20-90 with Bloodbath with every Hit/Dot?

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

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Even if i double my dmg right now, the selfheal (beside IB) will still suck.
Now Bloodbath 20-90 Heals, (90 was most a crit or with Berserk)
Stormspath 100-150

Double it, and you see, still sucking.

The probem is "healing with dmg done" is bullshit. My HP increased from fresh 50 5xxxHP to 6800HP, first i was skilled 30 Vit, then i did 10 STR 20 Vit, my dmg increased by 5 or 6 Points, my IB increased my for 30 Points. Bloodbath? 1-3 Points or so.

The should scale Selfheal with Max%HP. because our HP Pool will increase more then our dmg.