Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I tried DRK as well but I feel that the current dmg meta is not suited for some jobs like PLD and DRK who are clearly more focused on control. I've seen a decent DRK/SMN combo in FL where the DRK salts and the smn drops slip to lock players in. However co-ordination is uncommon in pvp and that was only a one off. Imo pvp atm is like yugioh in the TCG. A lot of single strong abilities that can win games and combo focused.

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Yeah, it's good to pull a couple people in with Salted Earth and watch your teammates smack them down, but those rare occasions of team co-ordination don't make up for the time I spend stalling and waiting for prey to catch with my SE. Feels like I'm playing Fisher instead of DRK.

Just copying something I said in another DRK thread, after a long absence:
The use of HP as a ressource is a great callback in PVP, and while for obvious reasons it would be absolute chaos to implement in PVE I think some ideas could be taken from it.
Either use MP instead, straightforward enough, or make Darkside a ressource you refill by spending MP (the same way you'll refill your HP with the generic healing skill in PvP). Some abilities will consume it, others will either refill it or give you MP back to refill it with other skills.
But having to actually manage a ressource feels good and I hope it comes back to PVE DRK.

I, like most people, rarely get on here to thank or praise SE but thank you for patch 6.1 changes to DRK - took way too long but thank you all the same.

That being said, do you think there is any chance to lower CS/AD to 30 seconds? Take the damage off AD by half its current value or take it completely off and add a bleeding effect to c&s that instead of doing damage adds a regen?

I hate the argument but I’m going to use it anyway. Every other tank has a heal built into their combos, heals built into their cool new lvl 82 cds, and has substantial heals outside of that. Because this game is built on spike damage I’m asking for at least one method of controlling healing.

What about a “soul survivor” effect on oblation. It’s no secret it’s effect is underwhelming compared to the other 82s. Whatever HP is mitigated is returned after the effect. Too strong? Maybe but % can be tweaked. After all it’s only a 10% mitigation. It will rarely save you this is just to smooth out the damage spikes in between tbn. It maintains an element of risk versus reward for DRK since you can’t abuse it since it’s on a timer. I’m guessing that risk vs reward is the new theme since tbn appears to be staying as the only tank that keeps their short cd with a resource needed.

There’s two ideas, I’m only interested in doing 1 of them or something similar.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Just copying something I said in another DRK thread, after a long absence:
The use of HP as a ressource is a great callback in PVP, and while for obvious reasons it would be absolute chaos to implement in PVE I think some ideas could be taken from it.
Either use MP instead, straightforward enough, or make Darkside a ressource you refill by spending MP (the same way you'll refill your HP with the generic healing skill in PvP). Some abilities will consume it, others will either refill it or give you MP back to refill it with other skills.
But having to actually manage a ressource feels good and I hope it comes back to PVE DRK.

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The reason DRK doesn't use MP in PVP is because the new heal spam system is tied to it, DRK would get a massive nerf if that had to compete with its actual skills.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

The reason DRK doesn't use MP in PVP is because the new heal spam system is tied to it, DRK would get a massive nerf if that had to compete with its actual skills.

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Yeah I know, i'm talking about PVE using MP instead.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

or make Darkside a ressource you refill by spending MP (the same way you'll refill your HP with the generic healing skill in PvP). Some abilities will consume it, others will either refill it or give you MP back to refill it with other skills.
But having to actually manage a ressource feels good and I hope it comes back to PVE DRK.

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...What difference would that make, though?

Presently, we refill our MP to use MP in ways that are themselves beneficial and capable of a unique degree of banking.

Having us instead refill our MP to fill another gauge to then get something of value, unless there are new and enjoyable gameplay loops therein you've simply yet to describe, isn't adding complexity so much as convolution.

Thus far, our only real example of that has been the Blood-Mana relationship of Blood Weapon and Quietus, back when Quietus could, via BW, generate MP and Blood per enemy struck and thus refund itself, offering BW further power in AoE.

In typical raids, though, the difference between, say, TBN awarding 50 Blood (essentially, the potency of Bloodspiller over average combo ppgcd) as compared to, in effect, MP (the potency of Edge of Shadow) was almost nil; in ST, the resource "interplay" was ultimately no deeper than now.

So, what would make this new gauge (or, this change to make our existing Darkside gauge newly worth showing on our screens) capable of resource interplay? If we're just doubling bar-watching without anything more to get out of it, that is not a positive improvement.

That I do not know, it could generate blood or just have different ways to build it (both a MP dump like edge/flood are as of now, and some other actions like a weaponskill or ogcd).
It could just straight up use MP the same way HP is used in PvP too, though since this ressource is so static it might not feel as good.
Maybe by having a MP drain effect again ? I don't know, it is just a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

I don't know, it is just a suggestion.

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That's fair. And I apologize for seeming to require you to have all the answers from the start.

My concern is just that many here (on the forums, broadly, but also on this thread in particular) seem to think that just throwing additional on-paper complexity at the job will necessarily produce improved gameplay, despite that greater on-paper complexity actually allowing for fewer options and thus less in-practice complexity, let alone gameplay improvements.

That's understandable.
Adding complexity without creating a satisfying loop or mechanics wouldn't work. I'm of course not suggesting slapping a sudden tight ressource management without changing anything about the kit ahah

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Just copying something I said in another DRK thread, after a long absence:
The use of HP as a ressource is a great callback in PVP, and while for obvious reasons it would be absolute chaos to implement in PVE I think some ideas could be taken from it.
Either use MP instead, straightforward enough, or make Darkside a ressource you refill by spending MP (the same way you'll refill your HP with the generic healing skill in PvP). Some abilities will consume it, others will either refill it or give you MP back to refill it with other skills.
But having to actually manage a ressource feels good and I hope it comes back to PVE DRK.

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There is also a third option.
HP becomes a resource for an attack on charges, but MP skills replenish your HP. Essentially the same A to C path, but routed through B -- the extra step giving you some flexibility in your tanking style.

It creates a possibility for self-sustain through MP-based skills which DRK badly needs, offers options for risk-reward by gambling an amount of HP you think is worthwhile, and gives you a loop so you aren't just overhealing with Souleater when you're offtanking, pooling your MP to heal right after a big spender or during bursts.
And, crucially, isn't something any other tank can do or justify, given Dark Knight's extensive history.

And then when you are main-tanking, they can go a step further with the PVP callback and have Dark Arts make your next cast of the HP spender free. If the attack's on a fixed number of charges and gaining/spending Dark Arts isn't a resource shared with any other type of ability, you're not wasting any resources if the boss doesn't break your bubble, just more efficiently staying alive.

Plus, it means that we can bring in classic Darkness skills and take AD back off CD for an MP cost.

Then we just have to figure out what to do with the Blood Gauge.