Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by jumps004

The outrage brigade really are using this as an opening to profit, diminishing any valid criticisms and hindering chance of real feedback actually getting seen. It is real unfortunate, these official forums seem like a real plague on actual discussion. Parroting their favorite conspiracy theorists without a hint of research, targeting irl people instead of faults within the game itself. I am shocked to even see them playing a game like FFXIV considering the messaging.

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Yup. And it's obnoxious because it's only a handful of bigots in a sea of normal people, but Twitter/media is latching onto those same 5-6 bigots spouting their nonsense to crush any discussion of it on certain platforms.

I seriously hate the Wuk Lamat's voice actor is trans discourse so much. It literally doesn't matter. I think the voice actress has done a bad job, but that's not because she is trans but because she can't read lines right. And people don't dislike Wuk Lamat because her voice actress, but because Wuk is freaking annoying! JP/EU also hates her and they have different VAs!

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Yup. And it's obnoxious because it's only a handful of bigots in a sea of normal people, but Twitter/media is latching onto those same 5-6 bigots spouting their nonsense to crush any discussion of it on certain platforms.

I seriously hate the Wuk Lamat's voice actor is trans discourse so much. It literally doesn't matter. I think the voice actress has done a bad job, but that's not because she is trans but because she can't read lines right. And people don't dislike Wuk Lamat because her voice actress, but because Wuk is freaking annoying! JP/EU also hates her and they have different VAs!

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Let's be honest, there are radicals on both sides and they do an excellent job of scaring away regular people.

It's amazing how society has actually regressed in the last 20 years.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

If you believe that, make a separate thread or go on 4chan or something. You're seriously making the rest of us look bad and will just decrease the possibility of any reflection on SE's end. People are already not taking the complaints seriously because they think it's just another culture war issue.

Also, Dawntrail isn't even woke. You're telling me woke = some white guys with PhDs waltz into a tribal village and tell them what their own festival does because the tribe is literally too low IQ to know wtf their own festival is for? Or the tribe based in what is clearly inspired by Machu Picchu being literally called Pelupelu. LOL.

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There is definitely understones of attempts at what some would call Woke, for example none of the Cultures are portrayed as inherently bad and any bad things they've done are washed with weak reasons behind why they did that, Its overly colourful for each group and that's intentional, which some would call woke, I would have liked some negatives in these cultures as it makes them feel more authentic. The rubber bullets part comes off woke to some people, because it just comes out of no where in a game that also stabs people through the chest, is it because its a gun? maybe who knows, but some people dont like that. Then there's the changing of Beast Tribes to Allied Societies, now even i will call that woke, there's no other reasoning behind it, someone think its offensive or rude or something to refer to Beast Tribes as Beast Tribes and has convinced them to change it to Allied Society, which sounds like the most Political Correct term you could ask for lol.

So yeah the game is not inherently woke, but there's elements different people with different views will take differently and some will hate it all and say its all woke, while others will say whatever, its just bad writing, but there's definitely things there that are really fucking stupid based on perceived offense.

As for the Hanu, Yeah it comes off as the dumbest shit and makes the Hanu looks really stupid as a culture. Bad writing is all over.
Try not to get so bothered when people use the word Woke, arguing with them isnt going to change their mind, either ignore them and agree to disagree or if you actually care, find out specifics of what they think is woke and form your own opinion as to why you think that was good or bad writing.

Regarding the Hanuhanu part, while it might sound silly that they didn't know the reasons for their ceremonies, it's quite more common than you think. In many cultures and societies, people just follow through with the ceremonies or certain aspects of the cultures without knowing the secondary reasons behind it.

For example, in my culture, there's a song to be performed during the harvesting season. While it might sound silly to perform a song during the harvest under the heat of the sun, it's a method to announce to other villagers that the harvesting season has come, as well as to bring the community closer through the sing along.

So, yeah, while it might sound a little bit silly for a tribe to doesn't know what their ceremony is for, it's a reflection of real phenomenon, and I find it to be quite interesting.

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

Regarding the Hanuhanu part, while it might sound silly that they didn't know the reasons for their ceremonies, it's quite more common than you think. In many cultures and societies, people just follow through with the ceremonies or certain aspects of the cultures without knowing the secondary reasons behind it.

For example, in my culture, there's a song to be performed during the harvesting season. While it might sound silly to perform a song during the harvest under the heat of the sun, it's a method to announce to other villagers that the harvesting season has come, as well as to bring the community closer through the sing along.

So, yeah, while it might sound a little bit silly for a tribe to doesn't know what their ceremony is for, it's a reflection of real phenomenon, and I find it to be quite interesting.

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The issue arises when the game mixes traditional ceremonies with magic that actually affects the physical world. They could see the effects of the ceremony *immediately*, Zanuhali remarks on the effectiveness of the festival.

This is more akin to them neglecting to change their car's oil for years, or diluting the oil with something else because who cares, it still kinda seems to work. It's ridiculously neglectful, for something that is pivotal to their day-to-day life.

On the other note, what are the chances of devs receiving/noticing the negative feedback from the community? Do they read the forum? Or are they relying on someone from the localization or the staff to bring them the feedback? How will we know that they receive the feedback in earnest and not the pick-and-choose ones?

If it was up to the localization team, they'd probably just pretend everything was fine and that everyone really loves Wookie. Thank goodness for being able to leave feedback in many different places so they can't cover it up.

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Originally Posted by Kaecilius

The issue arises when the game mixes traditional ceremonies with magic that actually affects the physical world. They could see the effects of the ceremony *immediately*, Zanuhali remarks on the effectiveness of the festival.

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Worse, it's not like it some long lost art either. The carpenter who maintaining the boat effigy CLEARLY know about it, yet for some reason he decided not to mention this to the Hanu until we showed up. There is convenience story telling, and there is this.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Yup. And it's obnoxious because it's only a handful of bigots in a sea of normal people, but Twitter/media is latching onto those same 5-6 bigots spouting their nonsense to crush any discussion of it on certain platforms.

I seriously hate the Wuk Lamat's voice actor is trans discourse so much. It literally doesn't matter. I think the voice actress has done a bad job, but that's not because she is trans but because she can't read lines right. And people don't dislike Wuk Lamat because her voice actress, but because Wuk is freaking annoying! JP/EU also hates her and they have different VAs!

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I quite literally refuse to air my opinions about DT on Twitter for this exact reason. I am like you and just did not care for Wuk Lamat's VA's delivery of her lines. It has nothing to do with how they identify, and has everything to do with their skill level amongst a sea of seasoned, veteran VA's (just look at Urianger's VA's resume on IMDB compared to Wuk Lamat's). The voice and Wuk's omnipresence this expansion is the reason I did not enjoy MSQ and I'm so so bummed.

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

On the other note, what are the chances of devs receiving/noticing the negative feedback from the community? Do they read the forum? Or are they relying on someone from the localization or the staff to bring them the feedback? How will we know that they receive the feedback in earnest and not the pick-and-choose ones?

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Given that it's not only the english forum this time but also things likethe japanese forum, r/ffxiv, the first gaming magazines, user scores and even the first content creators (even though more the smaller ones) there is no way they don't hear this all.

Now if they do something about it is another question. I want to believe so because it's the story this time and not job changes or hairstyles (anyone remember the Hrothgar hairstyle dilemma?). It's the one thing this game prides itself on compared to the competition.
If they don't react to that in whatever form they might really risk big this time because MSQ enjoyers is probably the biggest part of the community.
Will Dawntrail kill the game? No but 7.x in this form and another expansion like this together could very well do that. At least the game could lose it's "great story" status and tbh what is left then?

Personally I think the first step for them should be saying "we heard your feedback and don't ignore it, don't worry we take it serious".
It would not be the solution but it would calm down people quite a bit.

I was doing the final trial and loving it. Who should so happen to insert herself in again and ruin it. She's like a worse zenos, just allways there making everything about her

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Personally I think the first step for them should be saying "we heard your feedback and don't ignore it, don't worry we take it serious".
It would not be the solution but it would calm down people quite a bit.

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This is what I hope for: them acknowledging the feedback. I mean, I still want to trust the dev team.

And remember this?

https://i.imgur.com/Nv6lfuK.png

I hope they still take this seriously.

At the harvest float, I was still in an overall good mood if slightly bored, but foolishly optimistic that we'd get a turn of the narrative soon, so this would just be a kind of stupid and unfortunate episode. I was still making light-hearted jokes to my friend then about the "cultural sensitivity", see also: Our culture is, we like fair trade and alpacas.
But I lost it at the dead baby dilemma in the third zone, when for once there seemed to be a darker turn to something in the story, and it's solved within 5 minutes by the classic method of: "Did you know you have bad magical rocks in your forest? But it's okay, we have foreign scholars and science so we can give you better plants, use those. Now you don't have to get all those babies killed anymore." And everyone's happy.

The problem is how they define the word "fans" to begin with, they may think of fans as the ones who see them do no wrong and consider the ones who are vocal or critical to the game as "non-fans" or "loud minority". While I do not understand it fully, the western side of stuff tends to do that, such as the case of Disney and Star War, ending up with their own echo chamber of praise and rejecting any criticism from "fans" as from haters.

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

The problem is how they define the word "fans" to begin with, they may think of fans as the ones who see them do no wrong and consider the ones who are vocal or critical to the game as "non-fans" or "loud minority". While I do not understand it fully, the western side of stuff tends to do that, such as the case of Disney and Star War, ending up with their own echo chamber of praise and rejecting any criticism from "fans" as from haters.

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I didn't have the impression they do this up until now. They seemed to listen to both sides equally.
But if this should prove true, which I hope it won't, then everything they apparently learned would be null and void.
Please don't take this route devs.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

I was doing the final trial and loving it. Who should so happen to insert herself in again and ruin it. She's like a worse zenos, just allways there making everything about her

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The true irony.... by the end of Endwalker I legitimately felt more kinship with Zenos than I do Wuk Lamat at the end of dawntrail. We have things in common, we do have similar drive, we saw each other as real rivals and had mutal respect for our combat prowess if nothing else. I have no respect for Wuk Lamat at all. She is not my student, she is not my friend. She is an albatross hanging around my neck.

Fourth Zone has been great without her, it actually has a theme, things are looking up but the storyline of the bracelet...

I never played an FF expansion where the quality of the writing goes up and down so dramatically as so far has highlighted for me in the Fourth Zone...It's jarring and somehow it's still better than the first two zones and a little more than third zone.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

This is what I hope for: them acknowledging the feedback. I mean, I still want to trust the dev team.

And remember this?

https://i.imgur.com/Nv6lfuK.png

I hope they still take this seriously.

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Lol i remember this, It just makes me think all the more that Dawntrail was entrusted to newer people who just dont get it.

I actually like her start from third map.

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

The problem is how they define the word "fans" to begin with, they may think of fans as the ones who see them do no wrong and consider the ones who are vocal or critical to the game as "non-fans" or "loud minority". While I do not understand it fully, the western side of stuff tends to do that, such as the case of Disney and Star War, ending up with their own echo chamber of praise and rejecting any criticism from "fans" as from haters.

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There is also an increased focus from popular content creators who cry out for the superficial over the substance.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

This is what I hope for: them acknowledging the feedback. I mean, I still want to trust the dev team.

And remember this?

https://i.imgur.com/Nv6lfuK.png

I hope they still take this seriously.

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if they just listen toxic positivity then the game is doom to fail again in the story aspect

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Originally Posted by ZodaSoda

Lol i remember this, It just makes me think all the more that Dawntrail was entrusted to newer people who just dont get it.

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That's a symptom of the larger problem with society and this "immediate gratification" mindset. Gotta get fast profits, endless growth.

You want to hire a real journalist? Nah, just get that intern to make an article with 3 tweets and a reddit post as the source.

You want to hire a graphic designer? Nah, just get the art from AI, no need to hire someone to DRAW something, gosh.

Developers? Are you CRAZY? How about we get someone out of a 6 month bootcamp for a fraction of the price. It'll be 'good enough', we can promise patches down the line.

This is unfortunately the story in many industries as we move further toward this top-heavy system. Folks have noticed the slip in quality. This industry in particular used to be a labor of love, a hobby for folks who deeply loved fantasy. Then it started to make a little money and the second that happens, folks who have no business directing any kind of art whatsoever end up in charge and it turns into nothing more than a 'product for the purpose of making money' rather than a 'product of my imagination that happens to make some money'.

It's depressing to have lived long enough to witness this morph.

I want to like her, and still do for the most part. I can agree that the writers tried way too hard to make us like her, and forced her into too much of the story. She's a decent character handled badly.

I ran out of patience when she did a massive chunk of damage to the final boss outta nowhere. I can tolerate her showing up, I can tolerate her trying to talk some sense into Sphene one more time, fine. Throw out some big dick mitigation to the players, apply some vulnerability stacks to Sphene because you keep fucking with her resolve, that'd be pretty cool actually. But please. After an entire expansion of me facilitating your happy horseshit, right there would have been a very good way to reciprocate and facilitate my particular brand of happy horseshit (god killing). That's some good fuckin' cinema.

Don't bust in and mog us all by doing 13 million damage in a single swing.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

I want to like her, and still do for the most part. I can agree that the writers tried way too hard to make us like her, and forced her into too much of the story. She's a decent character handled badly.

I ran out of patience when she did a massive chunk of damage to the final boss outta nowhere. I can tolerate her showing up, I can tolerate her trying to talk some sense into Sphene one more time, fine. Throw out some big dick mitigation to the players, apply some vulnerability stacks to Sphene because you keep fucking with her resolve, that'd be pretty cool actually. But please. After an entire expansion of me facilitating your happy horseshit, right there would have been a very good way to reciprocate and facilitate my particular brand of happy horseshit (god killing). That's some good fuckin' cinema.

Don't bust in and mog us all by doing 13 million damage in a single swing.

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That for me was...probably the worst part of the expansion and made me hate the trial because I don't want to see that again, but you have to.

I haven't gotten that far but her power level has been ridiculous. Her only background is being trained by the Dawnservant, no indication she knows of dynamis, her character is far too one dimensional to make it believable she is realistically tapping into the power of friendship....She is not a genius of warfare or combat...I'am out of ideas at this point how she is this powerful.

It makes zero sense whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

That for me was...probably the worst part of the expansion and made me hate the trial because I don't want to see that again, but you have to.

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For a blessing, that sequence will most likely not be in the EX. The scions' prayers in EW didn't make the cut in Endsinger EX either.

Whoever wished for Zenos to be killed off did so using a monkey's paw...cause look at his replacement, but I guess from WoL's PoV its better to babysit an overpowered naive teenager than to be chased around and asked to fight after messing up his/her friends and body snatching him/her. But unlike Zenos she'll still be around (mostly out of spite ofc) I'd rather her stay than get replaced with someone even worse.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

I want to like her, and still do for the most part. I can agree that the writers tried way too hard to make us like her, and forced her into too much of the story. She's a decent character handled badly.

I ran out of patience when she did a massive chunk of damage to the final boss outta nowhere. I can tolerate her showing up, I can tolerate her trying to talk some sense into Sphene one more time, fine. Throw out some big dick mitigation to the players, apply some vulnerability stacks to Sphene because you keep fucking with her resolve, that'd be pretty cool actually. But please. After an entire expansion of me facilitating your happy horseshit, right there would have been a very good way to reciprocate and facilitate my particular brand of happy horseshit (god killing). That's some good fuckin' cinema.

Don't bust in and mog us all by doing 13 million damage in a single swing.

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It actually gets worse. During this segment, the WoL gets a buff that claims that they are so inspired by Wuk's bravery or whatever, and are thus able to go past their own limits. I can only assume they were hellbent on not getting any criticism over '' white savior!!! colonialism!!! '' like Stormblood that they had to resort to making such an awful Mary Sue Turali-native character so WoL doesn't seem like they are taking any credit for anything.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

It actually gets worse. During this segment, the WoL gets a buff that claims that they are so inspired by Wuk's bravery or whatever, and are thus able to go past their own limits. I can only assume they were hellbent on not getting any criticism over '' white savior!!! colonialism!!! '' like Stormblood that they had to resort to making such an awful Mary Sue Turali-native character so WoL doesn't seem like they are taking any credit for anything.

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This seems ridiculous but most of all completely silly. We're the epitome of utilizing dynamis...Why on Earth would we need a silly furry to help us?

At least if the scions did it...It would have been miles better.

Wuk is the story and wuk is weak. Too many eggs in the same basket there. She would have been a stronger character if she wasn't
a) a moron
b) somehow completely unfamiliar with the cultures of the realm she's candidate to become queen of - lyse only got a pass because she'd been effectively exiled from ala mhigo
c) omnipresent. Less really would have been more here, give the character time to breathe and the player some space.
d) uncritically naïve. Naivety is fine when done right, but coupled with point a., comes across as grating, and with point c., nigh impossible to avoid.
e) somehow immune to character progression. the two headed lizard had some development, why and how did a character with the whole storyline revolving around her and 4 times the lines manage to dodge it?

Even Zenos had better manners than her, yes he punched his way into the twitter dimension, but he didn't interfere with the fight - just facilitated it. It also really doesn't help that the story has spent 10 levels emphasising how weak (in terms of combat prowess this time) she is in general and especially when compared to the player. This just rang as a hollow attempt at fanservice with someone's donut steel oc.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

It actually gets worse. During this segment, the WoL gets a buff that claims that they are so inspired by Wuk's bravery or whatever, and are thus able to go past their own limits. I can only assume they were hellbent on not getting any criticism over '' white savior!!! colonialism!!! '' like Stormblood that they had to resort to making such an awful Mary Sue Turali-native character so WoL doesn't seem like they are taking any credit for anything.

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That part almost made me puke in the trial. We weren't even in need of it. We kicked the boss's butt anyway. It was really just another try to make her look awesome.
I mean if we go by lore and try to analyse what does that result in?
Is she now canonicaly stronger then we. What was the point behind it.

I'm actually really short of leaving the duty in the future when it comes up. Yes, I'm that spiteful towards her.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

It actually gets worse. During this segment, the WoL gets a buff that claims that they are so inspired by Wuk's bravery or whatever, and are thus able to go past their own limits. I can only assume they were hellbent on not getting any criticism over '' white savior!!! colonialism!!! '' like Stormblood that they had to resort to making such an awful Mary Sue Turali-native character so WoL doesn't seem like they are taking any credit for anything.

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I cant believe we got Thrall'd in FF14.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Wuk is the story and wuk is weak. Too many eggs in the same basket there. She would have been a stronger character if she wasn't
a) a moron
b) somehow completely unfamiliar with the cultures of the realm she's candidate to become queen of - lyse only got a pass because she'd been effectively exiled from ala mhigo
c) omnipresent. Less really would have been more here, give the character time to breathe and the player some space.
d) uncritically naïve. Naivety is fine when done right, but coupled with point a., comes across as grating, and with point c., nigh impossible to avoid.
e) somehow immune to character progression. the two headed lizard had some development, why and how did a character with the whole storyline revolving around her and 4 times the lines manage to dodge it?

Even Zenos had better manners than her, yes he punched his way into the twitter dimension, but he didn't interfere with the fight - just facilitated it. It also really doesn't help that the story has spent 10 levels emphasising how weak (in terms of combat prowess this time) she is in general and especially when compared to the player. This just rang as a hollow attempt at fanservice with someone's donut steel oc.

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D really is important, even after Sphene says many many times that she will genocide the source to save Alexandria, Wuk keeps beating her head agaisnt the wall over and over and over trying to convince her, to the point of stopping us mid-trial to try to reason with Sphene again.
Like come ON, Wuk went through the same stuff we did (since she was firmly welded to our hip the entire expansion), she should KNOW that Sphene cannot be reasoned with and it's either her or the source, so just kill her and save everyone.
This is beyond the naivete of even dense anime protagonists, this is almost intentionally obtuse to reality.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

D really is important, even after Sphene says many many times that she will genocide the source to save Alexandria, Wuk keeps beating her head over and over and over trying to convince her, to the point of stopping us mid-trial to try to reason with Sphene again.
Like come ON, Wuk went through the same stuff we did (since she was firmly welded to our hip the entire expansion), she should KNOW that Sphene cannot be reasoned with and it's either her or the source, so just kill her and save everyone.
This is beyond the naivete of even dense anime protagonists, this is almost intentionally obtuse to reality.

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Warrior of Light gets a chance to call BS on it after the trial, one of the dialog options legitimately dismisses defeating her and her agency and just call out the elephant in the room. Sphene is not a person, she is just a computer program with forced initiatives that is dressed up to look like a person. "Sphene" 100% had no choice in how she acted and never had a soul or free will to begin with. Wuk Lamat is too stupid, naive, and stuck in her self absorbed head cannon to stop and ever realize that though.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Only issue i have with Wuk is that she unfortunately, can't yell.

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Crazy how male biology and female biology differ. And you wonder why Wuk can't "yell" well.

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Originally Posted by Nucah

Crazy how male biology and female biology differ. And you wonder why Wuk can't "yell" well.

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Nah, it's VA's skill problem, there are a lot of Female VA voicing male characters in Anime and so on.

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

Nah, it's VA's skill problem, there are a lot of Female VA voicing male characters in Anime and so on.

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It's true that female VAs also voiced male characters. For example, Ash's VA for Pokemon. It makes sense because younger males before puberty and the further development of their vocal cords etc. have the effect that their voices are more high pitch and so that makes more sense. An older male voicing a young boy would sound jarring.

Male and females differ a lot in their biology/makeup when it comes to their voices. Males have longer vocal cords typically and they are thicker just to name a couple differences. Therefore, an older male trying to voice a young woman will come with challenges regardless. I have a friend who identifies as a woman now and has been in voice lessons for years and still has a male pitch because of his biology. He wouldn't have to take voice lessons to sound like a woman to change the pitch of his voice if this wasn't the case, it's just the reality of our make-up.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

For a blessing, that sequence will most likely not be in the EX. The scions' prayers in EW didn't make the cut in Endsinger EX either.

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If we're really lucky, it will be in it. Right up until she gets up after being flattened and instead stays down and dead where she belongs.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

If we're really lucky, it will be in it. Right up until she gets up after being flattened and instead stays down and dead where she belongs.

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Reverse Dragonsong Ultimate so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Verathel

I haven't gotten that far but her power level has been ridiculous. Her only background is being trained by the Dawnservant, no indication she knows of dynamis, her character is far too one dimensional to make it believable she is realistically tapping into the power of friendship....She is not a genius of warfare or combat...I'am out of ideas at this point how she is this powerful.

It makes zero sense whatsoever.

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Her naivety gives her strength, the more stupid and in orange cat mode her brain gets, the more dynamis she generates and she gets stronger as a result, idk.

It's not like she grows physically stronger or more clever, she just gains power because plot and then Mary-Sues into keeping it.

People keep saying Wuk Lamat isn't a Mary Sue because she has flaws, but I really don't think there's a point in the story where her flaws cause her to fail and she has to deal with the consequences, her flaws just boil down to "ooooo silly girl, she hates boats" or "oooo, silly orange cat no like lava"

Edit: To add to this, her naivety does cause her to be "betrayed" by Sphene, but the only consequences of it basically boil down to "I'm gonna do the bad." "No! Don't do the bad, Sphene! Friendship, understanding, unity!"
It's just plain boring, flat writing with no character development, no nuance, just overly-preachy drivel. I'm not one to care too much about quality of writing normally, but I'm damn gonna be critical of it if a character is gonna shoehorn themselves into the spotlight of my own game and not even be well-written or entertaining