Feeling punished for having alts...

Considering some "arguments" read...

Currently, the only difference, between the game as it is and the possibility to exchange/mail to an alt, is you need to create an alts FC.
- There are crafters who own their personal FC and who prefers linkshells for friends.
- There are people who play with two accounts and who can do exchanges between their characters.

There's nothing to do with exploits or other things. Do you really think players who can play with two accounts don't have nine retainers? Not from what I know.

RMT? They can level with a free account and make a paying account when they need and they do multiboxing.
Bots? Trading with alts will not change anything, it is still one account and you can't play several alts at time (that leads me to the conclusion if you want to run several bots at time, you need multiboxing).

The only players who are currently actually "punished" (or we can consider who play with some kind of penalty) are fair players who play with one account. Trading with alt is available in others MMOs without causing any arms (in my experience it is really not what is calling for RMT and bots since in F2P you can have a lot of accounts, you just need several emails).

To compare alt sharing mail with "mules" from F2P multi-accounting/multi-boxing is kinda...


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What do I miss considering alts?
Mailing to alts (we can already make exchanges with house "shop" retainers).
I would be glad if it was possible to exchange personal items between my alts, events glamours, for example.
Sharing house with alts.
About events achievments... I would make it an option to not lock RP.


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EDIT :
Currently, the only difference, between the game as it is and the possibility to exchange/mail to an alt, is you need to create an alts FC.
This considering the matters of the rights the FC gives to its members (chests rights can be limited -and often need to be-).

I'm not too fussed about QoL fixes - they'd be nice but not critical. I'm just getting tired of the arguments that "the only good reason to have an alt is [practical thing]". People have alts because they like having alts.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

Currently, the only difference, between the game as it is and the possibility to exchange/mail to an alt, is you need to create an alts FC.

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You don't need to create an "alts FC" to share items. You just need to put all your alts in the same FC. You'd only need your own FC if you intended to use the company chest as personal storage.

RMT creates FC's all the time. They work around the not sharing by mail with their other mules by doing that. I think if you check any rmt bot you'll see they belong to a FC so being able to mail to alts doesn't pose a problem to them. They are simply able to transfer whatever they like that way.

Also with respect to retainers... I don't know I've made more money in this game than I can spend and I've only ever had 5 retainers and rarely did I use all the retainer slots for selling. I've never used my alts retainers to help me either and for the most part other than Tome mats I buy with tomes and materia I get from hunts I haven't seriously sold anything since 4.2.

I enjoy my alts and I'll continue to enjoy them whether or not SE ever gives us any relief.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Mailing between alts is toxic. Well man, if you came up with this sentence, it might be you who need to take a rest from forums.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

While Im not suggesting that mailing between alts is toxic, Im saying that just because you want something doesnt mean it wouldnt have detrimental effects.

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Hmm. Its almost like I said I wasnt suggesting it was, but trying to illustrate the point that sometimes what we advocate can have unintended consequencse.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

I've played like 20 different MMOs through my life, but never seen any player base triggering so much to any criticism or just a wish to see improvements in system.
Like, come on, what's next, people will argue that server ticks is a cool thing and they shouldn't fix it?

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No one is saying asking for improvements is bad. What I am suggesting is the consideration of what they want would also entail and isnt inline with the current structure of the game. This isnt WoW, and I dont mean that flippantly. How WoW is structured as a game is different than how FFXIV is from a PC standpoint, and the differences means that just because it works on WoW doesnt mean it would work here without issue or abuse.

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Originally Posted by Kytrin

Seriously? That's your argument and solution? I hate to break it to you hon, but your solution doesn't work. I have tried. I cannot list something on K'rina for Sonja to buy. Amazingly, I get this fun little error that says I can't purchase something I myself listed and I'm S.O.L..

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Then something is going wrong for you. I just tested it with 2 of my alts. Listed 20 Steel Ingots on a retainer of my Hyur alt and then bought them with my Viera alt. No problems doing it at all.

Now if you listed the items on one of K'rina's retainers then tried to buy it with K'rina, it will give you that error message. I do that by accident sometimes on my Roe alt that runs our FC workshop since I use her retainers to sell items for the FC, and don't always remember I had ore up for sale that I need for another project.

I wasn't trying to call you entitled. I was giving an example. Sorry you took it the wrong way.

If you read to the bottom of my post, you would note that I agree that giving players the ability to mail items between alts wouldn't have any significant impact on the game since players already have a better way to get around it in the form of the FC chest.

If you're going to be easily offended by other people expressing an opposing viewpoint, you're better off staying away from forums that are meant for discussion and debate.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

No one is saying asking for improvements is bad. What I am suggesting is the consideration of what they want would also entail and isnt inline with the current structure of the game. This isnt WoW, and I dont mean that flippantly. How WoW is structured as a game is different than how FFXIV is from a PC standpoint, and the differences means that just because it works on WoW doesnt mean it would work here without issue or abuse.

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WoW's mail system is already abused far more as additional storage than FFXIV would be. WoW allows 12 attachments per letter with no limit on the number of letters that can be sent to a character, though you can only view the most current 50 and mail expires after 30 days. You could also have up to 12 characters per world in WoW (not sure if they increased the limit after I stopped playing). It was a very common practice for players to use the mail system in that way. Trying to set up a personal guild bank was very expensive for the normal player.

The limit of 20 letters with up to 5 attachments here would make the mail far less practical as an additional storage and transfer system. Alts are already being created and used for additional storage because there are already ways to transfer items. Allowing players to mail items between their alts won't start something that isn't already happening.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

The only players who are currently actually "punished" (or we can consider who play with some kind of penalty) are fair players who play with one account. Trading with alt is available in others MMOs without causing any arms (in my experience it is really not what is calling for RMT and bots since in F2P you can have a lot of accounts, you just need several emails)

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This isnt accurate. You are ignoring the structure of those games vs how FFXIV works.

Look, the model that SE has set up for FFXIV is that it is designed around 1 PC. You can do everything you want in this game with just 1 PC. This means class options, storage options, gameplay, etc is designed around this aspect. That means some of the payment and monotization that is part of this game is designed around that factor. This isnt how some of the other mainstream MMOs operate. The go to example being WoW. They have a game designed where it is expected for you to have multiple characters per account because to play the game to it's fullest, see the most of the world, see the storylines, etc, youre gonna have Multiple Alts with different roles because each character you create is locked into 1 class and the limitations of that. This matters a great deal because it changes a lot of how things are approached. For example, it makes sense that you can mail gold and gear to alts in WoW because its a soft work around for players whove leveled to max and want to leverage what gametime they've already put into the game to get their new alts off to a stronger start. Alts that you are expected to make. FFXIV is not designed to haev a player create multiple alts. This doesnt mean you cant, but that the game doesnt expect the average player to do this on a regular basis, unlike wow. And the game and it's structures demonstrate this.

Lets think realistically about what happens though if you do import stuff like mailing alts from WoW to this game. If you decided to change the system, what you will see is people make the rational decision that instead of buying extra retainers, theyll just buy the 15 a month sub (if they havent already) and use the retainers on alts to get additional storage (This happens in WoW as it currently is, among other MMOs with game structures that are very close to WoW). With 7 Alts per server, thats an additional 14 retainers for an extra dollar or two. Now you could do that currently but there are road blocks in the way which discourage a majority of the player base from engaging in that practice. People have figured out ways around it, yes, but that does not mean that it is an intended feature.

This is just one example of why certain things dont play out. As Ive said I havent read every single response in the thread, but I dont recall seeing any point addressing this directly outside of something a long the lines of "Well, a handful of people exploit these loop holes in the current system, therefore its fine if everyone does it. There is no consequence to this." But there is. Whether you agree with it or not, SE makes money from retainer services for additional income. Advocating for you to be allowed to mail stuff to alts and the like would cause people to start creating bank alts because it is the rational thing to do, and shut off that revenue source for SE and the Devs. They would have to change monetization practices to make up for that shortfall. That could be anything from increasing the amount of items that are exclusive to mog station to increasing the cost of the full size account sub, hurting everyone who has it.

What is the work aroudn to this? Why does this point just get ignored or handwaved cause "Oh look, a small handful of people do it, therefore its not a legitimate point." It's pointing to statistical outliers and saying the whole thing is bunk.

That is my whole point. Would it be a great QoL improvement for people who do have alts? Yes. It would be pretty good. But it also comes with consequences that, at times, I feel people are turning a blind eye too cause it's inconvenient to what they want.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The limit of 20 letters with up to 5 attachments here would make the mail far less practical as an additional storage and transfer system. Alts are already being created and used for additional storage because there are already ways to transfer items. Allowing players to mail items between their alts won't start something that isn't already happening.

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Except I think you and many others are overstating how often this is done. Im not saying its not being done, but that youre using the same argument as everyone else is: "Everyone is doing it already via loopholes so its all for nothing; therefore just make it allowed."

The simple reason why I dont think this is nearly as prevelant as is being argued is because this practice would directly cut into the Devs (and SEs) bottom line. If it was as widespread, they would change the monetization model to compensate OR put in more stringent safeguards to dampen the activity. They havent done either, which means theyre operating on a margin where they expect a certain % of the player base to abuse the loopholes, but the broader base to not due to how much effort is necessary and just settle for more retainers.

The common complaint I see is "SE is greedy and Money Grubbing!" and yet they would let such an 'easy and widespread' loophole that cuts directly into their profits remain in the game is contradictory.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

The simple reason why I dont think this is nearly as prevelant as is being argued is because this practice would directly cut into the Devs (and SEs) bottom line. If it was as widespread, they would change the monetization model to compensate OR put in more stringent safeguards to dampen the activity. They havent done either, which means theyre operating on a margin where they expect a certain % of the player base to abuse the loopholes, but the broader base to not due to how much effort is necessary and just settle for more retainers.

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If this was truly about storage being used for monetization...

... they wouldn't have increased player and retainer inventory sizes a few years back.

... they wouldn't have given us chocobo saddlebags.

... they wouldn't have given us a glamour dresser.

... they wouldn't have given us the Store Room for housing.

All those things increased the total storage available to players without increasing revenue per player. They decreased our need to purchase retainers and thus the potential revenue to be gained through the sale of additional storage.

If SE isn't seeing that many players using alts as additional storage for a main character as you believe, it's because people aren't after additional storage for items that can be traded. If those players want the extra storage at all, it's for items that can't be traded like gear for glamours. Any intelligent person who wants additional storage for items that can be traded is already making use of alts because it's by far the cheapest option.

The game isn't going to suffer any additional harm if alts were allowed to send mail to each other. The harm is already being done through the marketboard and FC chests.

I still don't ever expect to see it happen. There's too much moldy leftover spaghetti code in the game. It's been 2 years since SE told us they wanted to set things up so alts would automatically be tenants of a private house owned by another character on the same account and world, and that hasn't happened yet. It's likely related to the same code that controls our ability to add friends and send mail.

And since I can still easily transfer items between my alts using the FC chest and marketboard, not being able to use the mail system to do it doesn't bother me. It would be nice to have but I don't need it.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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Except that... you can already sell stuff to your alt for 1gil with "shop" retainer system. This allows extra inventory and extra sellers on marketboard. And if you play with a secondary account. Buy one month, one time in your life and you will be able to get back the money when there is the "Come back" event (two or three times a years but we don't need that many gils it be a problem). And this extra account if far cheaper than several extra retainers for months.

With the alt FC chest it makes things even easier.

As said by Jojoya, it is probably more the code of the game itself the problem. Even if they rewrote some parts, I guess a big part of the game is still designed considering the technical limits from 2010 (and a patch on a patch on a patch makes things complicated to overhaul).

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I can't see how you can say you are being punished. The entire game is built in way that you don't have to create alts, unless you wanted to play on a different data centre or with a different character look. Granted, i think housing should be shared across all of your characters on the data centre.

The thing is, even for story replay-ability they have created New Game Plus so more and more there is less incentive for us to create and play alts. Which to me can only be a good thing.

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I understand the OP's point. Some of us have a certain level of roleplay to our characters. As an example, I've had two characters in every MMO since Everquest. A wizard and his half brother, a warrior. When I started a couple of months ago, I made the wizard character into a summoner and leveled him to 35. I then figured I'd test out the job system and made him a Gladiator. Though the class seems fun, I hated seeing Khelendrose as a tank of any type. For more than 20 years I have played him as a caster only. So, I made an alt, his brother, as a tank. I just can't fathom running one as both. It is not enjoyable because I have 20 years of history with the two separate characters.

I understand the frustration behind not being able to share resources with alts, considering nearly every other MMO out there does so. At least from a shared bank perspective.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If this was truly about storage being used for monetization...

... they wouldn't have increased player and retainer inventory sizes a few years back.

... they wouldn't have given us chocobo saddlebags.

... they wouldn't have given us a glamour dresser.

... they wouldn't have given us the Store Room for housing.

All those things increased the total storage available to players without increasing revenue per player. They decreased our need to purchase retainers and thus the potential revenue to be gained through the sale of additional storage.

If SE isn't seeing that many players using alts as additional storage for a main character as you believe, it's because people aren't after additional storage for items that can be traded. If those players want the extra storage at all, it's for items that can't be traded like gear for glamours. Any intelligent person who wants additional storage for items that can be traded is already making use of alts because it's by far the cheapest option.

The game isn't going to suffer any additional harm if alts were allowed to send mail to each other. The harm is already being done through the marketboard and FC chests.

I still don't ever expect to see it happen. There's too much moldy leftover spaghetti code in the game. It's been 2 years since SE told us they wanted to set things up so alts would automatically be tenants of a private house owned by another character on the same account and world, and that hasn't happened yet. It's likely related to the same code that controls our ability to add friends and send mail.

And since I can still easily transfer items between my alts using the FC chest and marketboard, not being able to use the mail system to do it doesn't bother me. It would be nice to have but I don't need it.

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Sigh...

Im not saying its ONLY about storage, Im using storage as an example to illustrate that the advocation for what you want has downsides which is why its not only a net benefit.

But fine, lets just settle in to that specific point. Just because theyve slowly expanded storage over 3 xpacs now to accommodate for more items that the player base will inevitably collect. Design decisions that go into the game are decided with some careful thought in mind. Theyre not sitting there being like "Well we're super nice and were gonna knee cap our income, so lets just give more space". Theyre a business, like any else, and are weighing pros and cons of doing said things. The bet is to keep the sub base relatively happy by adjusting storage count to match the expansion, while not doing it so much that people wouldnt be incentivized to still buy extra retainer space. Dont give enough, and people rationalize that the storage space doesnt make sense cause were 3 xpacs in and get pissed about it, give to much adn people decide tehy dont need retainers. It's a balancing act.

Beyond that, youre just using systems in the game to get around the fact that they dont want you have free extra storage without trouble. Ive already explained that you using loopholes in the system doesnt justify your position regarding them not allowing trade between alts when Im talking about the larger implications of said system. A handful of people may use loopholes to get around limitations that were designed into the game, but SE probably banks on this happening cause no system is perfect so theyre (again) doing a balancing act where it would be more work (and money subsequently) for them to completely find solutions to close out said loop holes, so its easier to leave it open as long as it doestn cut to deeply.

The second it becomes much more cost effective for them to close said loopholes that would likely result in more retainer purchases (and more revenue for them), I would guarantee that theyll do it. I also guarantee that you will see some people using said loopholes will likely complain and try to justify it as 'working as intended' and SE being money grubby again.