Formal Letter to SE about RMT situation.

We need the JP servers flooded by them so they do something about it.

WoW, EQ2, both games culled the majority of it. Why can't SE?

I think they need to take care of the suppliers of the RMTs (miner accounts) that make the gil for the sellers who sell to the people who buy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

I know this is an old quote but what more do you want them to say? Do we need constant updates every month with the same response? Source

As for combating, what seems to work quite well is character creation restrictions. I'm on balmung (ever locked down) and Have next to no issues with RMT. Maybe we should lock down all the servers?

---

Way to make me feel a whole lot worse...I wish I had not seen that quote. It makes SE look terrible.
They have been working on this 2012?
It's too good a game, with too many great people working on it. They could have fixed this by now, they have had plenty of time. They MUST be profiting from this in some way. It is why they are no longer addressing it. It would be ridiculously easy to track the gil. I have looked on these websites, they give you options on how to transfer the gil. They tell you the safest way, they even say if you do it this way you can't get caught. When people publicize how they are going to cheat and you can't stop it, it makes you look really bad. I could write code that could monitor these types of gil transfers easily. For goodness sakes go after the websites, you have lawyers, close them down. I have been playing MMOs since UO, ones with much larger populations than this, this problem can be handled. How can anyone possibly defend their incompetence? Why How is this thread hurting anyone? I will personally volunteer my time...I will give SE permission to monitor my chat fully, I am willing to work for free by offering to sting the gil sellers. I am sure you could get plenty of volunteers. The truth is SE DOES NOT WANT TO FIX THIS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

/snip

---

You're joking......right? That post is the same old panacea that the White Knight/Fan Boys drag out to cover SEs collective butts for them. The number of posts in this thread alone proves what a joke it is. Also that post is almost 2 years old. Try using newer material.......Oh that's right there is no newer material.

You know, people keep saying SE is in cahoots with gil sellers and RMT so that the company can profit off of them, but if that is the case, then why doesn't Square just sell gil directly outright? Why go through all the secrecy and backdoor deals?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

You know, people keep saying SE is in cahoots with gil sellers and RMT so that the company can profit off of them, but if that is the case, then why doesn't Square just sell gil directly outright? Why go through all the secrecy and backdoor deals?

---

No one is saying they are in "coohootz" I think they are banning them and they are buying new games therefore generating revenue from buying the new games and more subscription revenue. The more subscribers and sales the better they look. We can complain all we want but unless we quit and impact the revenue we can forget any kind of meaningful response from SE. More subscribers and more sales makes SE look better. It's sad they value that more than they value our satisfaction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magusrex

No one is saying they are in "coohootz" I think they are banning them and they are buying new games therefore generating revenue from buying the new games and more subscription revenue. The more subscribers and sales the better they look. We can complain all we want but unless we quit and impact the revenue we can forget any kind of meaningful response from SE. More subscribers and more sales makes SE look better. It's sad they value that more than they value our satisfaction.

---

Sorry if I sound daft, but isnt what you just said the very definition of cahoots?

ca·hoots
kəˈho͞ots/
nouninformal
plural noun: cahoots

colluding or conspiring together secretly.
"the area is dominated by guerrillas in cahoots with drug traffickers"
synonyms: in league, colluding, in collusion, conspiring, collaborating, hand in glove, in bed
"it turned out that the commissioner was in cahoots with at least two of the managers"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

You know, people keep saying SE is in cahoots with gil sellers and RMT so that the company can profit off of them, but if that is the case, then why doesn't Square just sell gil directly outright? Why go through all the secrecy and backdoor deals?

---

RMT actually cost game companies quite a lot of revenue, this is from an article about how RMT can launder money.

Quote:

---

Back in January 2008, Sony Online Entertainment CEO John Smedly told Massively that credit card fraud and chargebacks had cost SOE over $1 million over the previous six months. And Scott Hartsman, now the CEO of Trion Worlds, told Gamasutra in July 2011...

"Where you go buy gold from a disreputable gold site, and they say 'thank you' and deliver your gold, and sell your credit card number, or start registering accounts with your credit card.
"It's those kinds of things where people laugh and go, 'Oh, that never happens.' No. It happens. It happens a shitload. To the point where, over the last three or four years, I would dare anybody to ask an exec at a gaming company how much they've had to pay in Master Card and Visa fines, because of fraud. It happens a lot."

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

I know a lot of these "simple" fixes people casually throw out there sound easy to implement and an easy solution but we don't know their server structure, their coding, what other countermeasures they have in place, how the fix might inadvertently cause problems, etc.

---

I don't know much about their server structure or their coding, but I do know it's the server structure and coding that they themselves implemented and are running a game on that they're charging us money to play. It's their job to either work within that server structure and code base, or to change it if they find they're incapable of working with it. I don't buy the idea that they'd be so incompetent as to be unable to provide any of the basic tools that have long since become industry standard, when they're clearly capable enough to create the game itself.

...No @#*(! it costs companies money. I was asking people how Square even profits off of RMT and why they would go through so much trouble hiding it when they could just sell gil to players directly and be honest about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Sorry if I sound daft, but isnt what you just said the very definition of cahoots?

ca·hoots
kəˈho͞ots/
nouninformal
plural noun: cahoots

colluding or conspiring together secretly.
"the area is dominated by guerrillas in cahoots with drug traffickers"
synonyms: in league, colluding, in collusion, conspiring, collaborating, hand in glove, in bed
"it turned out that the commissioner was in cahoots with at least two of the managers"

---

No, they are not conspiring together secretly...They are profiting from their inaction. There is a profound difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

First off, I want to make sure you are clear that I am also not a fan of RMT, I do think more needs to be done and I too think the issue is worse (on some servers) than other games. I just don't think berating SE over it and leveling such harsh criticism does anything to help the situation.

Anyway, what i meant by taking the fight to RMT is doing a DDOS attack on their websites, spam them with emails, do unto them as they do unto games. Report the websites, or something actually proactive against them. What we can actually do, I dont exactly know but I see no one attack the RMT's or even consider it. Look at that thread that appeared today about "How should i deal with this kind of friend" where he talkes about a friend of his that buys gil. This is part of the problem. This person needs to be named, shamed, and banned. The RMT and the Buyers are the problem, if there wasnt a market for it, they wouldnt be here.

As for the right click report function, it was actually addressed at one point. they were worried if they implemented that and the right click block that people might accidentally use this. That was before the right click block was implemented so now that they have it, I too think adding the report to that mini menu would be a good idea. Something mentioned a long time ago. I know a lot of these "simple" fixes people casually throw out there sound easy to implement and an easy solution but we don't know their server structure, their coding, what other countermeasures they have in place, how the fix might inadvertently cause problems, etc.

Also, just like others have said, most of the fixes will fall under the "fixing the symptom but not the cause" Rather than more band aids on the RTM scaring, I would like to see more permanent solutions to stop them, I'm sure SE feels the same way. Even banning an account is just a band aid solution, its nothing for them to scam another account, hack someones account, just go and buy another copy, etc. SE puts up an IP blocker, they use VPN. SE blocks them from spamming chat, they make 6 new characters and cycle through them to spam. This is the biggest reason I think SE isnt going to tell us what they are doing, why would they tell us on a public forum how they plan to stop RMT? That's like the US government announcing on Public TV their secret plans to invade ISIS.

I think my problem is I have more empathy for the people at SE than i do for the rudeness I see in some posts here about this. I'm not a programmer, I'm not a tech expert, and I'm not a PR whiz but I do not envy the job SE has in trying to combat it.

I find it incredibly insulting and condescending when people say things like "SE is lazy". Really? They took a failed game, rebuilt it into something that is now gaining traction. All while still upgrading and supporting the current failure they knew they would be scrapping when they were done. They did it through the Tsunami and earthquake and nuclear disaster that wreaked havoc on Japan. They put up with barrage after barrage of players giving them grief. And they did it all in about 2 years time. Not sure what the average time a company has to produce a AAA MMO before release but I think its more than 2 years and did it with a skeleton crew (i think under 20 employees actively working on the game)

"SE is just profiting from the RMT/in bed with the/benefit from the numbers they provide" Somehow I don't think SE is altogether enjoying the RMT screwing with their balanced economy, Pissing off legit players, creating tons of more work for them to play damage control between players and media, More working trying to ban accounts, research accounts to make sure they are legit RMT, find out if it is a stolen account and try to recover it for the player, and then get constantly badmouthed for it.

Sorry for the rant, I could go on ad-nauseum but I'm sure i'm just wasting my time and breath as well as the time of people reading/skimming over this. People arent in this thread to come to any understanding, they are just here to vent their frustrations.

Just my 2 gil.

---

For one, your suggestion to DDoS their websites is quite illegal, so that's off the table. Spamming emails at them isn't going to do much of anything, either. They will still spam players. Now if SE wanted to hire legitimate players to combat the RMT, by flagging their accounts instantly when they receive a /tell, I'm sure many would jump at that opportunity, even for free, but SE doesn't give us that choice.

SE remade FF14 because they lost a ton of subs over it and were ashamed that they had tarnished the FF brand. They most likely don't have any such concerns over this issue. Veterans won't unsub as they enjoy the game outside of the RMT problem, so this isn't as pressing to them as when they were losing money from the original FF14. I'm not saying they are lazy, definitely not, but they do not seem to possess much care for this particular issue. I do not know why you find such comments insulting, SE is paid to filter through insults to actually see the constructive message, if there is one. They are a business, I assure you it does not hurt their feelings lol.

As an aside, I agree gilbuying should not be tolerated, even if by a friend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And reporting them like that would help yes, BUT it doesnt automatically delete the account, so said rmt can delete that character, make a new one, and send you a new message withing about 2 minutes of you reporting them.

---

You're mixing up reporting with blacklisting. The players' side of reporting is the first step. The whole point of that process is for those reports to be processed, and any that are true to result in banning the RMT's account. (That's their entire account, not just the one character.)

And yes, the ability to report immediately is desired because it's necessary to reach the banning step immediately as well. Right-click report has to be in conjunction with a 24/7 staff who will ban every genuine RMT account that gets reported, and will keep up with those reports as they come in. (Really, it's not like it's any harder for a GM to recognize whether a message is RMT spam or not than it is for any of the rest of us to recognize it. SE keeps talking about their "investigations" of such things, but the investigation for spam is just a half-second glance at it.)

The current problem is two-fold. First it's an awkward hassle to try and report anyone. But then, even if you do report them, they don't get banned any time soon. Both of those problems have to be fixed before it will stop the RMT spam.

They need to make an account-wide blacklist option, because that would knock out a wider range of these stupid friend-bots.
Honestly, they just make more and more without deleting, it's rediculous.

Look at this picture, LOOK AT IT, it pisses me off.
http://imgur.com/c7x2gxB
(erk, their name is their website advertisement and now I felt like I just advertised by showing my blacklist, gross)

A right-click report function that auto enters the details at the time would be helpful too, it's such a drag to type out the facerolledkeyboard name, and all the other stuff.

Character creation locks do nothing.

I'm on Excalibur. Its locked most of the time. I'm still spammed constantly.

Here's a thought. I wonder how long it will take for the RMT to gain access to HW by doing the Main Scenario (if they even need to do all the quests for access)? This will tell us how organized they are and how much SEs Laissez-faire approach has allowed then to become entrenched in the game.

Rizon the RMT do not need access to HW to carry on their spam since they search the world. Its only for botting it may be profittable and since theyve already got 4x BLMs doing expert runs for materia and loot, or lv50 Miners under the terrain in mor dhona - i dont think theyll have any issues bypassing the game's restrictions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

They need to make an account-wide blacklist option, because that would knock out a wider range of these stupid friend-bots.
Honestly, they just make more and more without deleting, it's rediculous.

Look at this picture, LOOK AT IT, it pisses me off.
(erk, their name is their website advertisement and now I felt like I just advertised by showing my blacklist, gross)

---

It's funny because their names are so blatant. They're pretty much shouting "hey, look at us, we're not even afraid of bans, get some."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shori

Rizon the RMT do not need access to HW to carry on their spam since they search the world. Its only for botting it may be profittable and since theyve already got 4x BLMs doing expert runs for materia and loot, or lv50 Miners under the terrain in mor dhona - i dont think theyll have any issues bypassing the game's restrictions.

---

True to a point. If they are subject to the same rules as the rest of us then their Spam will be relegated to the ARR areas. Are these 4X Blms actually doing all the quests? Last I knew Gathers, in and of themselves could not enter HW unless they completed the quests as DoW or DoM and I have never seen RMTs doing anything beyond Pretorium. Like I said will be interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

Character creation locks do nothing.

I'm on Excalibur. Its locked most of the time. I'm still spammed constantly.

---

That is because the current bots are not being banned/taken away SE does not take them right away, the same bots can sit there for weeks, even a month or 2 without ever being banned. creation locks prevent new characters from being created, but there is no need to create new ones when the olds ones are still there. i remember when i 1st started playing this, i reported 3 bots, and 1 rmt harvest bot, (underground, afk status, etc) i happend to past by that area 3 and a half weeks later and they were STILL THERE.

I will agree that this is a problem. I've been away from the game for a year and came back about two weeks ago. I was surprised to see my blacklist was still full of spam accounts that hadn't been deleted. I still get about a half dozen tells and a bunch of friend requests everyday from characters with blatant Gil selling names.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

I will agree that this is a problem. I've been away from the game for a year and came back about two weeks ago. I was surprised to see my blacklist was still full of spam accounts that hadn't been deleted. I still get about a half dozen tells and a bunch of friend requests everyday from characters with blatant Gil selling names.

---

When they ban accounts characters don't show as deleted the only characters that show as deleted are ones people deleted or transferred off your server so you should be safe removing all the old ones

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rizon

If they are subject to the same rules as the rest of us then their Spam will be relegated to the ARR areas.

---

The spam bots themselves have no reason to leave the ARR areas, or indeed their starting city. They can spam people anywhere while remaining there. I expect they'll remain level 1 characters in Ul'dah spamming everyone who's off exploring Ishgard.

The bots accumulating all the gil for them to sell, on the other hand, would do better if they reach the most (gil) profitable content, so those ones may be aiming for HW (if the increase in gil profitability is worth the added real-world cost). But as bots they could also rely on middling-profitable content and just doing lots and lots of it. It'll depend on whether the content they're already doing can keep up with the gil demand of their customers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rizon

Are these 4X Blms actually doing all the quests?

---

If they are indeed doing expert runs, then they completed all the 2.0 main scenario quests. If they can deal with 2.0, then they can probably manage the 2.1 to 2.55 additions to it.

Dummy characters on servers, not real, with random names, if they get a friend request or a tell the person sending the tell/request goes null...meaning they think they are sending requests, messages or shouts but only they see them...It is all automatic without effort and the gil sellers waste their time without even realizing they are not doing anything...how bout it?

Just a friendly push to the front page. I know it's been asked and ignored before, but again, can we get a response even if it's just a "Yes we are aware" would be better then the blatant ignoring we have gotten so far.

I now have 8 gilseller friend requests which I'm too lazy to get rid of...and I think in the past day (yesterday) I think I heard (as I don't view General chat all that much anymore) 10-15 tells. (I'm starting to get lazy blacklisting the rmt tellers too)

Very little time left until HW. We shall see what happens in the next week or two. Then we will ultimately see if they had anything in the works this whole time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zabuza

Very little time left until HW. We shall see what happens in the next week or two. Then we will ultimately see if they had anything in the works this whole time.

---

Keep dreaming those good dreams.

Reporting them needs to be easier. MUCH easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rizon

Keep dreaming those good dreams.

---

What dreams? I honestly don't expect anything. Just will know for sure when HW comes if our voices were heard at all. If nothing improves, we'll know for sure they did not care about our protests.

I have noticed a change in the friend requests lately and I don't get any tells any more at least on Pheonix. The distribution of gill sellers seems fairly random and has no barring on population of the server from what I can tell. We also have minimal bots from what I can see.

I had a friend request from a gil seller the other day and before I could go through the motions of saying no it had been removed automatically presumably because he was banned. So they may be doing something but just not saying anything as that was too fast for anything but an automated system to catch.

Come on Squeenix get your heads out of your asses and acknowledge that this is a problem already. This continued silence and ignoring of your paying customers isn't making you look good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zabuza

What dreams? I honestly don't expect anything. Just will know for sure when HW comes if our voices were heard at all. If nothing improves, we'll know for sure they did not care about our protests.

---

The other thing to remember is we will see a difference...since a lot of the servers will be on lockdown due to such high traffic, the RMT won't be able to create new characters to spam us with lol so..it'll be like, not sure if they did something or..servers just full haha.

I'm done with reporting RMT bots until the support response messages go away from the last report I made. Yes, I closed the issue a week ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Solaria_Luna

I now have 8 gilseller friend requests which I'm too lazy to get rid of...and I think in the past day (yesterday) I think I heard (as I don't view General chat all that much anymore) 10-15 tells. (I'm starting to get lazy blacklisting the rmt tellers too)

---

I'm up to 41.

Signed.

The 2 step friend request refusal is what bothers me the most.

Got bored so decided to have a look at the original sign up sheet and see the distribution of people signing up. There appears to be a few server where either one of two things is true either forum activity is low or the RMT situation is not as bad, Pheonix my server being one of them. Servers that appear to have it the worst are Excalibur and Sargantanas(spelled three different ways btw). I know Excalibur is one of the most populated servers so that may be part of it but last I checked Pheonix and some of the others had huge numbers as well.

The only thing I can think of is there is some preventative measure in place against RMT that relies on something players in some severs are doing and players in others are no longer doing. I'm drawing conclusions here based on very weak evidence but it does make you think about why RMT target some servers but leave others, for the most part, alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iromi

The other thing to remember is we will see a difference...since a lot of the servers will be on lockdown due to such high traffic, the RMT won't be able to create new characters to spam us with lol so..it'll be like, not sure if they did something or..servers just full haha.

---

They most likely have enough accounts and characters set up in advance that it would take a while before we'd see an obvious difference based just on creation limitations. If the high traffic load is temporary and eases enough to allow new characters by the time they use up the ones they've already made, then they can keep going and we wouldn't see that drop.

As long as run selling is legal, rmt will continue to exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sessurea

As long as run selling is legal, rmt will continue to exist.

---

Not so sure that is quid pro quo. Until RMT significantly impacts SE financially it will continue to exist. it appears they will only try something new to fix it if subscribers quit en masse.