5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Sounds a lot like the meta bandwagon in that regard. Aether’s Locked out BRD/DNC because their Damage and rDPS was too low. Generally, all jobs are viable provided you can play them at the respective skill level required while doing mechanics. However, as said before, if this advantage given to other jobs on the higher end isn’t dealt with, it’ll wind up with some jobs being dead in high-end content with the amount of combat jobs we have currently.

To also cite a near-dead job, AST has it the worst since they have the highest APM out of all the Healers, and one of the more complex openers in the game for less DPS/rDPS.

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I really don't disagree with this.

They do need adjustments up, and some need some baseline class adjustments on top of that (Red Mage, Summoner come to mind immediately), but I'm really just kicking against this perception issue, because it's the hyperbole that you "Can't do it with these jobs" that leads to lock outs, not being "weaker".

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

In e2s the bottom 4 dps are DNC, RDM, BRD and SMN. If you're running that comp you probably don't deserve to clear in the first place honestly.

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Uhh yeah I think it's about time we end this charade. This man is not rational enough to have a discussion on job balance with. Bye.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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I though it was established on last page that >60 of whatever can clear content, and yes, 95 is indeed > 60, you are correct!
Wait how is this relevant again?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I really don't disagree with this.

They do need adjustments up, and some need some baseline class adjustments on top of that (Red Mage, Summoner come to mind immediately), but I'm really just kicking against this perception issue, because it's the hyperbole that you "Can't do it with these jobs" that leads to lock outs, not being "weaker".

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I've been against this issue since way back in HW when I used to main WHM, when DPS Meta was coming into fruition because of Gordias. Still, balance hasn't been this bad since 3.4, considering that was the worst time for Casters. It feels like we're just reversing roles now.

If change is to be had, we would need to look at each job and determine where the problems lie(in the current case, it's MNK and DRG being overtuned for what they provide as well as adjusting the DPS ofo both DNC, RDM, and SMN to be competitive). What we do want to avoid is power creep, because once that happens(kinda like how it is currently with MNK/DRG/BLM/BLM being meta for high-end) everything goes to shit.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Uhh yeah I think it's about time we end this charade. This man is not rational enough to have a discussion on job balance with. Bye.

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Because I used a rational static composition for my example, instead of cherry picking the data to support a hypothetical claim? OK.

Don't pick a group of three and a half "support" DPS and whine that you're hitting enrage, as you do so knowingly. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand. /shrug

Are we now claiming that because people are dumb and can't read a guide or ask questions, or heaven forbid think for themselves, SE needs to balance jobs so they can pick whatever they want without any consequence?

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Are we now claiming that ... SE needs to balance jobs so they can pick whatever they want without any consequence?

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uhhh.. yeah??? I mean that's kind of common sense

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Because I used a rational static composition for my example, instead of cherry picking the data to support a hypothetical claim? OK.

Don't pick a group of three and a half "support" DPS and whine that you're hitting enrage, as you do so knowingly. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand. /shrug

Are we now claiming that because people are dumb and can't read a guide or ask questions, or heaven forbid think for themselves, SE needs to balance jobs so they can pick whatever they want without any consequence?

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going to use 95th percentile for Titan(E4S):
A team using Blm/Mnk/Drg/Sam, 14763/14611/14347/14354 - DPS total = 58,075
B team using Smn/Rdm/Brd/Dnc, 13279/13182/13087/12883 - DPS total = 52,431

Difference in Dps = 5,644

That is alarmingly different to a point where the top 4 DPS are outputting more than a 9th person playing an AST at 50th percentile level, That is too high a difference and does need to be corrected because that shouldn't be allowed to be that high. at most the top 4 DPS combined should be no higher than 1k DPS ahead of the combined 4 lowest DPS right now any one playing the lower DPS jobs are truly hurting their team through no fault of their own this should be corrected fast.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Because I used a rational static composition for my example, instead of cherry picking the data to support a hypothetical claim? OK.

Don't pick a group of three and a half "support" DPS and whine that you're hitting enrage, as you do so knowingly. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand. /shrug

Are we now claiming that because people are dumb and can't read a guide or ask questions, or heaven forbid think for themselves, SE needs to balance jobs so they can pick whatever they want without any consequence?

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So you finally show your face at last... forum troll!

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

uhhh.. yeah??? I mean that's kind of common sense

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Fair enough, it was poorly worded on my part. And I should've framed my original comment as "we can discuss whether that comp should be able to clear", which would've separated it as another thought.

The only problem with pointing that out (along with the other comments posted above), however, is that it only gets us so far. Why isn't DNC, BRD, SMN, RDM a particularly strong comp? It's all terribly complicated and somebody eventually has discuss & decide what happens to what and how every job gets balanced to one another, preferably within the confines of the current content parameters.

Since I don't think I've actually stated my philosophy on balance, here it is. Loosely speaking, either the top ABC or bottom XYZ need to be nerfed or buffed, respectively, as it would help not diminish the "intended" difficulty of the content. It shouldn't just be about "free" buffs. It shouldn't be about compensating for mistakes. It would probably hurt less if both sides gave a little in order to meet somewhere in the middle, if the spread is 10% then meet at +/- 5%. Allow 1-2% tolerance. Be humble. Be happy.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Why isn't DNC, BRD, SMN, RDM a particularly strong comp? It's all terribly complicated

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I would say it's extremely simple. If you look at the numbers, you will notice right away that there's a large rDPS gap between jobs like BLM, MNK, DRG and SMN, MCH, RDM, BRD, DNC, with SAM and NIN (since 5.08 buffs) probably somewhere in between the two tiers. That gap in rDPS between the jobs is the reason why DNC, BRD, SMN, RDM is a weak comp. You fix it by reducing the size of that gap.

Square needs to decide whether BLM, DRG, MNK are too strong or if the others are too weak, or a mix of both. If the big three are too strong then you reduce BLM's personal DPS, and either reduce DRG/MNK's personal DPS or nerf the amount of raid buffs they bring to the table, or both. If the others are too weak, then you either buff SMN, MCH, RDM, BRD, DNC's personal DPS or the amount of raid buffs they bring to the table, or both. If it's a mix of the two then you buff and nerf jobs accordingly in order to bring them together.

Personally, as someone who plays RDM in savage content, my experience playing a weak job in pugs has led me to believe that the weak jobs need to be lifted up rather than the strong ones bring brought down.