Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

@Diva:
BLM rez everyone. Certainly.


@Remedi:
It doesn't make them AS good for progression as RDM, to be sure, but it gives them SOMETHING. That's all we need: an option.

I don't think dealing with mechanics is that tough with a tether, Dragon Sight does just fine, the only time I've EVER seen it break is during Delta Attack in Neo because everyone moves in a different direction. Could be a shorter CD, could be a longer tether, DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO BE A TETHER, I'm just trying to figure out how to make it less "white magic"-y. I think the tether puts it more into necromancy which works with the lore much better than "oh bringing you back to life = white magic."


By all means, write a pros and cons list, discussion is what we want, not hurdurryourstupid. And again come up with your own list of suggestions (everyone) to resolve the issue because "it's fine how it is" clearly is not the case. As I already stated I think the biggest con of this particular suggestion probably is the devs envisioning grief play where in the duty finder a healer lets someone die deliberately or the tank deliberately cleaves someone so the BLM can get their raise damage in.


@Diva again:

Not having raise is just another reason why BLM is not taken for progression, not THE ONLY reason. See also my comment about suggestions regarding raise do not nullify suggestions regarding damage. BLM certainly needs more damage/playability, but it could ALSO use raise. Hence this thread.

You bet your bottom dollar that even if BLM had a raise it could use only every 3 minutes that I would absolutely have used BLM for progression over rez dispenser, and WILL in 4.2 if they decide to implement it somehow, off-gcd or not (assuming that it gets other much needed buffs/qol).

@Llugen
What's the point of raise with 3m cd then?..Just to have it? Boring.
You still didn't convince me why BLM should have raise. Why tho.
I see that you not only want raise but other improvements, but having it only to be able to join progression parties sounds weak.

before starting the list, you cannot compare the punishment of breaking dragon sight for a spare secs to what you propose, as you said if the tether is broken the raised one dies, which is not the same as beign separated for a few clips from a dragon sigh which is a 5% dmg loss only, not to mention you regain it once you return in the range of it.
It also means that if in those 20 secs the BLM dies the raised target dies too, which makes it less appealing to prog.
Not to mention there are multiple things that current raise can do and that raise simply can't because of that restriction.

At this point if you want to give something that is also unique and maybe even in lore, why not copiying the soulstone mechanic from wow? BLM already has some mechanics taken from warlocks anyway

30 min duration buff that allows some1 to self raise Cd can be anything

(whm is gonna get reraise eventually anyway

@Diva:

YES. Yes. yes. The entire point of the raise CD is just to have it. To use it in an emergency, or when the other members of the group that have raise die. That is the whole point of raise. Note also that it is better for the group when the DPS don't raise, but they are capable of doing it when they have to, in particular Rez Dispenser can just save the entire party in 8 GCDs. It's still better if the healers can do it so the DPS don't lose uptime.


The caster role is off-balance, and ONLY ONE CASTER is chosen for static groups/raiding (if at all, thanks to BRD+MCH). Why should that one caster be BLM when it doesn't bring recovery tools of any kind AND is the only one in the role that doesn't have Raise (not to mention its issues with dealing with mechanics and its lower damage, those are for the other thread). This is the issue that needs to be fixed. The class is hands-down THE WORST to bring for progression, and quite frankly even if you have no idea how to play RDM or SMN, you can probably contribute more to the group by fumbling through those jobs than bringing BLM (this also happened during SCOB in 2.2, I was there Gandalf).

It doesn't have to have a 3 minute cooldown, that was mostly to balance the damage gain from it. And, as someone astutely pointed out several pages back, we are attempting to avoid "homogenization of the caster role", so one Rez Dispenser, one swiftcast/hardcast, and one long recast sounds like a pretty good spread to me. If you want to can the increased damage idea, I'd recommend maybe 90 seconds recast, the only thing is the increased BLM damage from it adds to the "how does this skill reconcile with the lore/vision of the class" point of concern.




@Remedi:

The target doesn't necessarily have to die if they go out of range, maybe they could get fetters. Or hell, could raise WITHOUT weakness and only if they die to the tether range THEN they get weakness. There's even more incentive to use it. I just think that point would set it far aside from the current raises in the game, helping to reconcile the fact that the "raw damage/black magic" caster has the ability to bring a player back to life.

Also, incentive not to die is not a new thing. The way that raise works currently leaves the player with lowered HP and if they move/execute actions before getting healed back up, they die again anyway. There is already nuance to well-timed raises, so I see no difference here.

Sure, that sounds like an ok suggesttion as well, sort of like a pre-raise, but I suppose I don't really see how that reconciles with "black magic". That's one of the big highlights of "necromancy" is that it fits right in to black magic lore. (also I did not play WoW in depth, so I don't really know the ins and outs of their classes) I suppose it could be construed as a targetable walking dead on any player..?

Soulstone works that you give a buff to some1 that once they dies they can resurrect themselves (eventually they made it castable to dead targets)

I wouldn't insist much on the necromancy lore of black magic because tbh necromancer is another caster altogether and as some ppl have said the thaumaturges were more like undead busters than anything.
If anything you should reconcile it with the void and souls and hence why a soulstone might fit

Also my concern with BLM diying and causing the death of the raised target resides with the fact that random deaths can be expected during prog for w/e reasons, if the goal is making BLM more enticing in prog then said addition must be extremely good for prog and not just a little either it must be massive because the community have labeled BLM useless in prog

If they would give BLM ability to rez ppl with no penalty, people would start looking at them from another side. Then 3m cd would be justified. But pretty sure that's unfair to healers and will never happen.
Im against giving BLM boost from resurecting ppl, will cause abuse for example from healers dying.

@Remedi:

That all makes sense except the last point, in my opinion. BLM will NEVER "be better" than RDM in prog, probably no class will, but if it's even just good enough for it, I (and hundreds of other BLMs) would prefer to just play BLM over rez dispenser. As it stands now it's just straight up awful, but between having a recovery tool (Raise) and being stronger/having more options for movement/handling mechanics, it would be much further along this front than it is currently.


@Diva:

Yeah that's my main concern, abuse/griefing. See also: Rescue. But how else do we reconcile all the points of concern (infinite MP, the lore, the homogenization, the uptime, "raw power", etc) about the job having Raise?

@Llugen
At this poing I don't care about having it, I am more concerned about other problems like new hard dungeons making me move without ability to dps:\

And like someone from reddit said:

Quote:

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I think it's more a factor of class fantasy. Black Mages are supposed to be the masters of dark and destructive magic. Them being able to resurrect and heal would be like Bard being able to tank. It just doesn't fit the fantasy.

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It just doesn't rly fit

Personally i do think that SE buffed balance simply to bait ppl in playing AST and nerfed it when the numbers of AST were ok for them, but I can be wrong
But because of that I think that they need to pull something along that lines to make ppl really care about BLM in prog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

) Let the BLMs be BLMs and let the RDMs be RDMs.

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Wouldn't giving Blm a raise kind of get in the way of allowing Rdm to be Rdm, though? If all 3 casters offer a res then what will truly differentiate between the casters? Won't this just shift the problem Rdm is facing of people dropping for Smn or at least feeling pressured to do so onto them switching to whichever of the other 2 that yields the highest damage? It just shifts the problems around. I think perhaps the reason you are meeting resistance on the idea of Blm having a raise is because currently [at least to me] Blm is the most rewarding once a fight has been practised thoroughly. This is true for every class of course but moreso for Blm. So I feel that is where their niche is. High damage, no recovery. Rdm offers recovery and utility with less damage, smn less utility less recovery more damage. I understand your reasons for suggesting a raise but I can't shake the idea that if and when Blm get the damage buffs we desperately need and IF they were given a raise then Blm would eclipse not only Rdm but Smn as well. So prog would still be one sided and then Smns will start crying again and no one wants that :p It's very difficult to bounce ideas around for something that to a lot of people seems like a really undesirable idea. It's not that everyone hates your ideas and are just trying to drown out your insight by imagining all the "splosions" [cringe] It's just that bending space and time and logic and lore and whathaveyou for the sake of something that feels so convoluted seems a little moot when there's a more obvious balance to be found amongst the casters. Providing Rdm and Blm get some buffs to cement them either side of the cozy spot Smn is in right now. Also being a snoot and vitriolic at people isn't very encouraging and leaves a bit of a bad atmosphere tbh.