Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

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Maybe consider not putting more blood on our abilities? We already have a steady gain every 30s as is, so I don't think it'd be a good idea to focus so much on resources even when trying to change DRK's kit. While yes, DRK needs sustain, it needs a proper sustain - not something you just slap on there like WAR does with Bloodwhetting and just straight up self-Benediction(which is still pretty broken imo). The other idea for TBN granting half MP cost would screw up our MP economy quite a bit, esp. since we tend to hold our DA Edge for burst or when we put our next TBN up last time I checked since it's a 3000 MP pay ahead. Halving the MP is basically the same effect but worse.

Your version of Dark Mind causes issues for Shield Healers in particular who mitigate the damage thinking this way. If you use Dark Mind when a Tank Buster is coming up and it's Physical, OOPS! I got rid of my shield and now I'm dead because I didn't have enough mitigation to cover it. I would prefer that we don't push them in that direction and instead just replace Dark Mind with something that works in tandem with DRK's kit in general since it's an archaic relic of HW. DRK just needs a 3rd generalized mitigation to apply to itself to match the other tanks and it'll feel better in terms of survivability(sans sustain, which we'll get to in a second).

I've been trying to wrap my head around how to deal with DRK's dilemma given how much of an issue it is just to stay alive during pulls(TBN cracks in large pulls VERY QUICKLY). AD has a stupid cooldown and is tied to C&S, so it's unreliable except for burst heal situations on 5+, and to top it off the only attack that actually heals you is Souleater(it's garbage). In general: Why don't we just bake in healing to the AoE combo? Not as a trait, just in general. It'd make DRK's survivability far greater in dungeons, since in ST DRK doesn't have as hard a time outside of needing a heal here or there that the healer can provide. If it's not enough, then simply just follow what the other tanks are doing: Give Oblation a Regen effect. All Tanks generally get their regen/recovery effect at 82 or so, so let DRK follow that path too. It may be "homogenization", but DRK desperately needs it to be able to operate without requiring the skill floor it already has when playing the job.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Maybe consider not putting more blood on our abilities? We already have a steady gain every 30s as is, so I don't think it'd be a good idea to focus so much on resources even when trying to change DRK's kit. While yes, DRK needs sustain, it needs a proper sustain - not something you just slap on there like WAR does with Bloodwhetting and just straight up self-Benediction(which is still pretty broken imo). The other idea for TBN granting half MP cost would screw up our MP economy quite a bit, esp. since we tend to hold our DA Edge for burst or when we put our next TBN up last time I checked since it's a 3000 MP pay ahead. Halving the MP is basically the same effect but worse.

Your version of Dark Mind causes issues for Shield Healers in particular who mitigate the damage thinking this way. If you use Dark Mind when a Tank Buster is coming up and it's Physical, OOPS! I got rid of my shield and now I'm dead because I didn't have enough mitigation to cover it. I would prefer that we don't push them in that direction and instead just replace Dark Mind with something that works in tandem with DRK's kit in general since it's an archaic relic of HW. DRK just needs a 3rd generalized mitigation to apply to itself to match the other tanks and it'll feel better in terms of survivability(sans sustain, which we'll get to in a second).

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How would a 1500MP TBN mess up with the MP economy? If anything it'd make it better because you do not have to have 3000MP to mitigate, you only need 1500MP. And you still keep the bonus equal, but its so much more comfy when you need to mitigate, just from the perspective of you have ~4000MP and are doing burst, right now , you cannot use an edge if a tank buster is coming, but with the change you could. And it won't affect your DPS negatively, like it does now.

I am pretty sure that having a stronger Oblation ( 15 - 20% ) along with Shadow Wall and being full HP, is enough for a tank buster. Besides , why would you use it when taking a tank buster? Its purpose should be to solve the DRK sustain issue, where you are eaten alive by auto attacks and cannot heal Living Dead ( or even contribute to it ).

There surely are other ways to deal with this, however I only thought of mentioning the issues I have with DRK as a Savage/Ultimate raider:
-> Too many buttons to mitigate. TBN or Oblation should be enough, and one of them slightly stronger. Having to double weave for 8 GCDs, and also weave in defenses...
-> Having mitigation tied to damage, reduces your current strength , which is dps.
-> Living Dead , Blood Weapon.
-> Dark Mind is ok to mitigate with, but its one more button that offers rotational mitigation, Oblation should do that. Also, you cannot recover from a tank buster. It should address that.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

How would a 1500MP TBN mess up with the MP economy? If anything it'd make it better because you do not have to have 3000MP to mitigate, you only need 1500MP. And you still keep the bonus equal, but its so much more comfy when you need to mitigate, just from the perspective of you have ~4000MP and are doing burst, right now , you cannot use an edge if a tank buster is coming, but with the change you could. And it won't affect your DPS negatively, like it does now.

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A reminder that it still has to break. If the shield doesn't break, no Dark Arts. While 1500 MP may not be bad on paper, in general let's say you have the 1500 MP. Usually around the minute mark is 6000 MP. Instead of 3 Edges, you can only do 2 because the cost is 1500, then jumps straight back up to 3000, leaving you with an excess 1500 MP. That's what I mean by it messing up the MP Economy compared to now, where you save your Dark Arts for burst and get value for your 3000 you paid forward for breaking TBN. While this hasn't taken into account Blood Weapon, you still are left with filler MP after that may or may not grant an additional edge over the course of 9m, which needlessly increases the skill ceiling over how accessible the job is currently.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

I am pretty sure that having a stronger Oblation ( 15 - 20% ) along with Shadow Wall and being full HP, is enough for a tank buster. Besides , why would you use it when taking a tank buster? Its purpose should be to solve the DRK sustain issue, where you are eaten alive by auto attacks and cannot heal Living Dead ( or even contribute to it ).

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That's what your mitigation is for: reducing incoming damage. I think you blew over my suggestion for adding Regen to Oblation, making it close to the same as all the other tanks' since DRK is the only tank without a Mitigative Regen. Just increasing the mitigation won't be enough alone despite wanting it at 15% just like GNB's HoC. While this will not fully heal Living Dead, it will substantially give DRK a tool to mitigate the need for an extortion of a massive amount of MP or Healer Resources merely for a single Invuln. Remember, our issue with Living Dead is putting the yoke on the Healers to save you when there isn't a WHM around(which more and more are swapping from WHM given its current state).

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

There surely are other ways to deal with this, however I only thought of mentioning the issues I have with DRK as a Savage/Ultimate raider:
-> Too many buttons to mitigate. TBN or Oblation should be enough, and one of them slightly stronger. Having to double weave for 8 GCDs, and also weave in defenses...
-> Having mitigation tied to damage, reduces your current strength , which is dps.
-> Living Dead , Blood Weapon.
-> Dark Mind is ok to mitigate with, but its one more button that offers rotational mitigation, Oblation should do that. Also, you cannot recover from a tank buster. It should address that.

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Footnote 1: Too many buttons to mitigate? For a Tank? Gee, look at GNB and tell me how there's too many buttons to mitigate damage? They have to double-weave A LOT harder than DRK does given their kit. If that's too many buttons to mitigate, I think it's more of a personal issue. imho I think DRK has too little mitigation options compared to the other tanks, even with an on-demand TBN every 15s that cracks open like an egg in 3s during trash.

Footnote 2: This we can agree on. People aren't exactly amused with TBN being tied to damage in any way, but it presents itself a skill floor that people have to get through to play DRK effectively and correctly timing your TBN. A majority at least believe it should require no MP, at the very least.

Footnote 3: Getting addressed in the next Live Letter. If they don't change it properly, well...I guess DRK might as well be deleted from the game for some people since they'll just quit the job for one of the other three. We've yet to see, but hopes are not really high given how SE's responded to DRK criticism in the past.

Footnote 4: What is with the obsession with Dark Mind? It's a button that literally is outdated and either A) needs major reform, such as into an upgrade at a certain level, or B) Needs to be pruned and replaced with a general mitigation that can be applied in all scenarios, not just Magic Damage(which is very, very scarce in terms of damage).

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

That's what your mitigation is for: reducing incoming damage. I think you blew over my suggestion for adding Regen to Oblation, making it close to the same as all the other tanks' since DRK is the only tank without a Mitigative Regen.



Footnote 1: Too many buttons to mitigate? For a Tank? Gee, look at GNB and tell me how there's too many buttons to mitigate damage? They have to double-weave A LOT harder than DRK does given their kit. If that's too many buttons to mitigate, I think it's more of a personal issue. imho I think DRK has too little mitigation options compared to the other tanks, even with an on-demand TBN every 15s that cracks open like an egg in 3s during trash.

Footnote 4: What is with the obsession with Dark Mind? It's a button that literally is outdated and either A) needs major reform, such as into an upgrade at a certain level, or B) Needs to be pruned and replaced with a general mitigation that can be applied in all scenarios, not just Magic Damage(which is very, very scarce in terms of damage).

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GNB is never forced to double weave in its no mercy burst for more than 3 GCDs, and during Continuation you have a free spot, and when using Double down you can double weave mitigations - DRK just has straight double weaving for 8 GCDs.
GNB's defenses are more condensed. That's what I was trying to aim for addressing. Heart of corondum is a massive damage reduction, aurora is a useful regen and camouflage is there for multiple hits. Dark Mind should be changed because as it is now, its just Oblation but slightly stronger against magic damage. Why should you have 2 buttons that do the exact same thing, when they are only 10% weaker than each other?
I did not dismiss the idea that Oblation should grant a regen, I just thought that creatively speaking, Dark Mind could be replaced with something of the sort, and Oblation buffed to be the short CD DRK has which grants decent damage reduction ( for which you do not need to press 2 buttons, cuz Oblation currently is a laughable 10% ).
I believe that every button should have a purpose and be somewhat meaningful when used, we shouldn't have 2 buttons that do the same thing one only slightly weaker than the other so you use both anyway. That's what Dark Mind and Oblation currently are.
On comparison Warrior's kit synergizes really well - all the buttons have a purpose and while on paper ability for ability some are not so amazing compared to for example TBN, they synergize much better.

Most would say its not really a problem because in most content its really not, but why in gods name would you put this kind of thing in a savage. And the argument for currently seeing whats what being "If it looks physical its physical, if its magic its magic" is complete BS. I've seen enemies divebomb the platform with their bodies and do either or without any sort of rhyme or reason, and the standard raidwide aoe in P1s https://youtu.be/FssBYFpVpR0?t=62 is Physical damage when its clearly a magic looking dark attack. I just don't want to feel like Dark Missionary and Dark Mind are useless in certain situations and have 0 way of knowing whether it is or isn't. Either show a dumb little icon over the enemies castbar (a red sword, blue mage hat) or get rid of magic mitigation altogether. Part of me feels like adding physical only damage would be cool as well as it would make tanks think more in depth about what to use per-fight, however for now we're just stuck with Base Mitigation, magic mitigation, and VERY few singularly physical mitigations, which is dumb. At the VERY LEAST make the skills that are magic based mitigation similar to the skill Feint, in which it mitigates 10% physical and 5%magic, but flip the script. Change Dark Missionary to mitigate 7%magic and 5% Physical, and Dark Mind to 15% magic and 10%physical. (Also what is up with the lack of consistency with translations? Missionary obviously states that it lowers magic damage received, however Dark Mind states that it lowers Magic Vulnerability?)

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

Dark Mind should be changed because as it is now, its just Oblation but slightly stronger against magic damage. Why should you have 2 buttons that do the exact same thing, when they are only 10% weaker than each other?

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Because Dark Mind is Magic Damage only while Oblation is a generalized 10% against all damage. They do not do the exact same thing in this regard. One has far more use than the other, which barely gets used since we're always having to guess what damage constitutes as Magic. I'd wish that SE would just color code it already so we know what's Magic and what's not.

Yes but Oblation alone is a worthless skill. At least Dark Mind can be impactful when used on the proper damage type.

Oblation seems to suck solely because TBN exists.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Because Dark Mind is Magic Damage only while Oblation is a generalized 10% against all damage. They do not do the exact same thing in this regard. One has far more use than the other, which barely gets used since we're always having to guess what damage constitutes as Magic. I'd wish that SE would just color code it already so we know what's Magic and what's not.

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A regen and a higher damage reduction would be better for sure. I am just saying that Dark Mind should be either changed into something useful like a heal or something to synergize more with DRK's kit instead of *another* damage reduction which is situational.

I expect one of two options with Dark Mind, if any changes come to it at all (which is admittedly a long shot, as they only mentioned changes coming to Living Dead):

1. That they'll go the route of Camouflage, making it a lower-potency generalized mitigation (like 10% or so) with increased effects against magic damage.
This is admittedly the less compelling option, in part because it would still be a weaker counterpart to Camo -- any amount of physical resistance vastly overshadows magic resistance in the grand scheme, especially when dealing with things like boss auto-attacks -- but also because even with a general potency, something that low would make it barely better than Oblation which is also extremely weak. It would feel like a consolation prize for not using it in ideal scenarios... and for balance reasons I expect that this would also result in Dark Mind's specialized peaks being lowered in order to bring up its general-use valleys.

2. That they'll leave it the way it is, but add some generalized survival bonus to it that isn't direct mitigation.
If it were up to me, I'd suggest having Dark Mind boost healing received in some way akin to a personal Magick Barrier. Not only would this fit the lore and aesthetic of the ability -- warping the effects of magic used on the DRK in their favor, keeping the flavor of "anti-magic" without making it a crippling niche -- but it actually would go a long way towards helping DRK's current difficulty to heal, expanding its variable utility without necessarily having to diminish its effects. Plus a healing received boost would mean both of its effects could contribute to TBN, even if one of them is still less helpful most of the time.

As for Oblation... no idea what they'll do. I expect they won't give it a Regen, however, partly because that would blatantly overlap with Aurora (unless it has a significantly lower potency) which I expect it was meant to act as DRK's "answer" to, and partly because it doesn't really fit the lore/aesthetics of the job to be tossing heal spells on other people. My expectation is, if it's on their radar to change, they'd just boost the mitigation provided.
My ideal scenario is that Oblation just gets folded into TBN with condensed effects to provide additional mitigation if the barrier breaks, but that would require a wholesale rebalance of TBN and I'm skeptical the devs would eliminate one of their shiny new buttons this soon after adding it, even though DRK could do with a trim.

But, we'll see tomorrow what their plans are for the job.

I don't think it make a lot of sense to give DRK a skill that boosts healing when it has basically no healing in its kit.

I want to see DRK made more independent, not saddled with more mechanics like Walking Dead.