What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Isn't that the Echo that does that?

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Pre-EW, the blessing and echo have different use. Echo protect from aetherial corruption and is a remnant of the Ancient soul, which has nothing to do with our soul special color considering that regular person can awaken their echo.

Hydaelyn's blessing/blessing of light meanwhile empowers you and allow a connection between you and Hydaelyn. That's why she can shield you from Ultima weapon.

I don't understand why they change the blessing of light into traveler's ward though in EW.

Regarding our soul color, we have always been reincarnation of Azem, possessing their unique color. Even without rejoining with ardbert. Rejoining with him only makes us being more complete in soul.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

But they did stop striving to do better. What are their metrics for what is good for the star? They were going to write off the serpent because it couldn't fly. Because it was not as it was planned to be. But sometimes the most worthwhile innovations and leaps forward come from accidents.

Then there's the situation with the creations that were killing other creations. They decided based on their own preset ideas of what was right that something like that wouldn't be of use to the star. But they didn't consider that may there was something that sort of danger could teach other creatures. We shouldn't be in conflict all the time, but we can grow from it.

They didn't show indication they could think outside the box like this. And so they stopped progressing as a species.

Also....why does everything have to have a use? Why doesn't something useless deserve to also exist?

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There’s multiple inferences that they were advancing, especially with the various breakthroughs we see, in pandemonium for example with Phoenix or even the Guardian Forces they were studying.They didn’t stop striving to do better i’m not sure where you’re getting that from. You’re trying to apply our real world logic to this which just doesn’t work. Pandemonium also shows that there were some creations that weren’t just killed off for being dangerous. They sealed them in there and would study them instead of just getting rid of them. If something is useless…then there’s not really a reason for it to exist is there? They kind of did show they could think outside the box time and time again. especially when the final days hit. Also again. not getting this weird headcanon you have that they stopped progressing when we’re shown numerous examples of their progression and developments. It seems like some people just like to argue ancients bad and get headcanon twisted into the narrative.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Regarding our soul color, we have always been reincarnation of Azem, possessing their unique color.

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What patch was this revealed in? At the end of ShB I thought it was just suggested that we might be Azems reincarnation.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

What patch was this revealed in? At the end of ShB I thought it was just suggested that we might be Azems reincarnation.

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Based on what hythlodaeus's shade and emet said in 5.0, and then it's basically confirmed in 5.3 when he gave us Azem's crystal.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Based on what hythlodaeus's shade and emet said in 5.0, and then it's basically confirmed in 5.3 when he gave us Azem's crystal.

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Even amarout recognizes the WoL when accessing things

Unfortunately the Scions have a very muted reaction to pretty much everything that works in their favour but is still very much a shady or questionable act.

As much as I adore Hien as a character, the story sure did gloss over the fact that he tricked the Xaela into fighting under Doma's banner. Not only that, but he chose to flood Yotsuyu's base which led to many of those inside drowning or being crushed by debris. Yet when similar tactics are deployed by the antagonists, even in the pursuit of protecting their loved ones and mitigating losses, they're framed as 'unforgivable'.

It's why I don't pay much heed to the supposed 'themes' of the game. They're rarely consistent and embraced or ignored based on whatever is convenient at the time. At the end of the day, both Meteion and Venat are responsible for the bulk of the tragedy and death in the game's story so to me, it doesn't make much sense for either of them to be treated so differently when characters with far less blood on their hands were treated with far more disdain.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Based on what hythlodaeus's shade and emet said in 5.0, and then it's basically confirmed in 5.3 when he gave us Azem's crystal.

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Ah, I see. Skip was my friend doing 5.3. Thanks for the info.

Just to make sure, your not talking about the section just before the Elidibus fight where the crystal that Emet Selch made and imbude talks about Azem being the 14 seat, right?

On the topic of the dev questions thread, I thought this question was very good - generally I'd like to see answers to all the questions that user posted... tempered of course by the understanding that this isn't specifically a lore/story Q&A and they have a lot of ground to cover. Still, it's worth a shot.

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Originally Posted by RoroCookies

Well obviously once the sundered reaches perfection we’re gonna have to sunder everyone again!

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Yeah, I think the fact that Venat just kicked the can down the road is conveniently ignored. I'm loathe to mention it because I don't want to get into a theological debate, but I can't help but notice some parallels with certain Biblical stories where when mankind isn't behaving in a way that God approves of they get wiped out and have to begin anew. The problem is Venat is no god, she was just a person like everyone else who convinced others to give her the ability to elevate herself to 'supreme deity'.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's why I don't pay much heed to the supposed 'themes' of the game. They're rarely consistent and embraced or ignored based on whatever is convenient at the time. At the end of the day, both Meteion and Venat are responsible for the bulk of the tragedy and death in the game's story so to me, it doesn't make much sense for either of them to be treated so differently when characters with far less blood on their hands were treated with far more disdain.

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This, for a protagonist Hydaelyn has more blood on her hands than all of the antagonists combined except for Hermes and, by extension, Meteion. I frequently see people mention the WoL/Scions don't have a problem with it because she benefits them, but for how long? Ever since someone commented that the 8UC is a complete bad end for Venat I couldn't help but wonder if she'd sunder the world again if she had the ability. After all, the sundered were behaving similarly to the unsundered in striving to bring back the past over moving forward.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The alternative explanation is that their societies weren’t perfect and instead simply traded one form of suffering for another. They achieved what they thought was perfection, worlds without sadness, pain or loss, when in reality they were just as plagued with suffering as “lesser” races. A perfect society would not kill itself after all. Perfection thus is bad, not because it’s a bad thing in itself, but because it’s an unobtainable goal that one will never achieve. And if one does think they have reached it, then they are wrong.

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Because that's just the way the game presents these societies. A very basic caricaturization of different perceptions of "perfection" or "the peak" because they're not meant to be working societies, they're just hero fodder. It's "mustache-curling laughing villains" levels of caricaturization. They themselves believe their designs to be perfect but the 5 year old audience can easily point at the flaws in their plan and then cheer when the heroes do just that.

I apologise in advance cuz i havent read through all of this thread and if those issues i mention were adressed before i apologise. I just made an account for the sole purpose of getting all of this stuff off of my chest...

Expansion has some pacing issues – the first half proceeded rly slowly, but I cannot undermine the importance of the events that happened – there was some exposition, introduction to new zones and characters, we had to craft talismans that offered protection against tempering, mount large scale assault on Garlemald, deal with Fandaniel/Zodiark and then proceed to uncover the truth about Final Days.. It is when we arrive in Elpis the story gains momentum and also introduces the main antagonist of this expansion along with explaining and establishing Dynamis as the source of cataclysmic events. The main issue I have is the Dynamis and Meteion themselves. Afaik there was no foreshadowing of the hidden source of energy akin to that of real life dark energy unless doing LBs count. (one of the Ancients mention that it's density is about 68,3% - same as hyphotetical dark energy). As of Meteion the entelechy girl was just naive, empathic, sensitive child granted with powers beyond her master's comprehension and later the same traits brought her downfall as she witnessed the fall of countless civilisations. As Hermes stated he did not learn her how to walk on earth, she was still a child, uneqipped with any psychological mechanisms that could help put up with everything she saw, the utter despair and nihillism she witnessed. Meteion served her purpose in the plot, but the late intoduction of an important character (introducing main antagonist after about 10 years...) sin feels rly meh to me and it also makes her shallow, simply because she doesnt have enough time for development. Also rouge AI is not a new concept...

Zenos pretty much did nothing much of importance to the expansion. Given how much development time he got i expected... something else? He still wants for more power, still is a bored psychopath wreaking havok around him. Getting stronger and a promise of another fight with us is what kept him going. He went all the way to the edge of the universe to just help us get rid of the nuissance that stopped us from fighting him."Never have I understood those around me. Understood their obsessions. Besieged by their banality, the world was a mire of tedium and trivialities". That's what he told us in his final moments indicating that in reality he saw no purpose in his life. He just succumbed to apathy and only when fighting with us he felt his blood boiling. Would i grant him this final fight? No fucking way, i would just yeet him in space and flew away. I think that Zenos is still NOT trully dead and SE might just make some sort of redemption arc for him cuz he helped us save the universe and is absolved of all wrongdoings right, right?...

During the expansion i did not rly feel the sense of despair and hopelessness. In ShB we metaphorically speaking collapsed under the weight of responsibility of saving not only our world but The First as well. We tried our best, killed the Wardens but we failed, doomed to turn into a monster. But we didn't give up, fought back and won. We earned it. In EW there is nothing like that. NPCs talk about failing and getting stronger but in reality we do not fail. We just go through every encounter with a breeze. When we arrived at Ultima Thule and Thancred died I was hoping that finally we might face some long term repercussions, embrace dread of losing our dear comrades but nope, we still had Azem stone in our pocket and after each and one of them gave their speech we just magically brought them back to life...

Correct me if im wrong but I think the principle of causality got betrayed in the storyline. When we traveled to Elpis and do the thingies, only us and Venat remembered the events that occured in the end. Memory of those events we're also the reason why The Sundering happened in the first place. So she waited thousands of year for us to be born to go back in time and witness the events in Elpis. Effect cannot happen before the cause yo, bootstrap paradox right there... I know i know we already had something similar with Alexander and i didn't like it. Also why couldn't we change the past? Just because papa Elidibus told us so? By going to the First and doing all of the stuff there we averted the 8th Umbral calamity and proved that timelines not converge to the same outcome...

Also i was thinking about the Sundering and it's influence on aether. If Hydaelyn split the world into smaller pieces it's safe to assume that aether got divided and aetheric density of each planet's atmosphere got thinner. Why didn't Meteion invade then? After the Sundering Zodiark's power was just a fraction of what he wielded back then and all of it was necessary to make the stagnant aether flow again and create aether barrier around the planet strong enough to keep Meteion at bay.

I don't hate this expansion but i cannot say i liked it either. Whole EW is like a love letter to Scions and although themes on nihilism and importance of life are syplhlike, they could have handled them better.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

There’s multiple inferences that they were advancing, especially with the various breakthroughs we see, in pandemonium for example with Phoenix or even the Guardian Forces they were studying.They didn’t stop striving to do better i’m not sure where you’re getting that from.

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But the question is what is better? When Hermes asks what’s the point, what answer do the Ancients have? If they say for the betterment of star, the question is why care? Why care when your mentor is dead, when you know the betterment of the star means nothing more than the constant creation and killing of creations with souls and feelings of their own?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re trying to apply our real world logic to this which just doesn’t work.

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They’re human, they’re living beings with thoughts, feelings and desires. You certainly can.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Pandemonium also shows that there were some creations that weren’t just killed off for being dangerous. They sealed them in there and would study them instead of just getting rid of them. If something is useless…then there’s not really a reason for it to exist is there?

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No life's existence should be based on arbitrary utility should it? And sealing them away is indeed more moral, but the fact was they sealed them for nothing more than study. Quality of life wasn’t exactly a concern.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They kind of did show they could think outside the box time and time again. especially when the final days hit. Also again. not getting this weird headcanon you have that they stopped progressing when we’re shown numerous examples of their progression and developments. It seems like some people just like to argue ancients bad and get headcanon twisted into the narrative.

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Let’s see how great their progress was when we reach deeper into Pandaemonium. They left it’s teleporter overgrown and abandoned for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Because that's just the way the game presents these societies. A very basic caricaturization of different perceptions of "perfection" or "the peak" because they're not meant to be working societies, they're just hero fodder. It's "mustache-curling laughing villains" levels of caricaturization. They themselves believe their designs to be perfect but the 5 year old audience can easily point at the flaws in their plan and then cheer when the heroes do just that.

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The game offers answers that the character fee gives their lives meaning. Their not meant to be answers in themselves, but examples of people establishing why they want to exist. The Ea are free to find their own path, as are the dragons and the Omicron. All the answers we see are just part of the larger answer.

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Thy life is a riddle,
To bear rapture and sorrow.
To listen, to suffer,
To entrust unto Tomorrow.
In one fleeting moment,
From the land doth life flow.
Yet in one fleeting moment,
For anew it doth grow.
In the same fleeting moment,
Thou must live, die and know.

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Technical issues aside. The Ancient demonstrate the fundamental issue with "perfect" collectivism. The crushing of the individual and "for the greater good!" being used as justification to sweep the moral issues it poses under the rug. Don't fall for magical communism.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

But the question is what is better? When Hermes asks what’s the point, what answer do the Ancients have? If they say for the betterment of star, the question is why care? Why care when your mentor is dead, when you know the betterment of the star means nothing more than the constant creation and killing of creations with souls and feelings of their own?



They’re human, they’re living beings with thoughts, feelings and desires. You certainly can.



No life's existence should be based on arbitrary utility should it? And sealing them away is indeed more moral, but the fact was they sealed them for nothing more than study. Quality of life wasn’t exactly a concern.



Let’s see how great their progress was when we reach deeper into Pandaemonium. They left it’s teleporter overgrown and abandoned for a reason.



The game offers answers that the character fee gives their lives meaning. Their not meant to be answers in themselves, but examples of people establishing why they want to exist. The Ea are free to find their own path, as are the dragons and the Omicron. All the answers we see are just part of the larger answer.

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Here we go again ignoring context to suit your narrative. Not all creations had souls, it was random whether they gained souls or not but also incredibly rare. Most of them were soulless constructs. However if we’re going to start arguing over them killing soulless constructs, then you had better be waving your no-no stick at the scions and wol. Summoning primals in Eden just to kill them without their consent, summoning numerous familiars and egi’s just to let them get battered in battle etc. Funny how i never saw any of you arguing against it until the Ancients came into the picture. Seems like a heavy dose of situation bias to me. The eden primals’ lives were based on arbitrary utility so try again unless you’re willing to shame the wol and scions for it, in which case they’re not better than the ancients.

I've been lurking for ages and I pretty much agree 99.9% with posters like Rulakir, Veloran, Lauront, Kizuya, etc. Just my own thoughts too...

I also 100% agree with the themes presented in the game: happiness is hollow without sadness, we must all find our own meaning in life, etc. However, even though FF14 and FF in general has never been subtle, it just felt like a gorilla beating me with a sledgehammer with these 'themes', at the expense of the plot itself. It was all basically a victory lap for the Scions/WoL, and it also felt very meta, like Yoshida himself was praising us for sitting through this all. The music did the heavy lifting and it's as if someone locked Ishikawa in a dark closet for weeks with nothing but a bottle of booze and a copy of Undertale. I would say the sensation I felt the most was 'nausea'.

It was to the point where it made me reconsidered my agreement with these themes, and to ponder the merits of the opposite. Big backfire. Or was that the intent? Anyway, that Bitter Amaurotine caricature strawman in Venat's Chuunibyou Manifesto scene is the true hero. Take me back to Amaurot, where I can hang out with people who actually feel like natural and organic old friends and not bland rich kid book club snobs who just butter me up so I'll be their muscle. And frig off, live-laugh-love mary sue sparkleprincess, you aren't my mom.

I could write way way more about my thoughts on the characters and story elements, but that would basically take up a small novel. And I've already ranted about it all at length to my friends. Unless they make any antag more compelling than the Ancients/Ascians/Garleans, I may just tune out from the story/lore I have grown so attached to...

EDIT: and for the record, I consider myself a sentimental person who feels strongly and isn't above getting choked up on books/movies/games. I also enjoy Kingdom Hearts and all of its funcringe and character moments. But this...

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

I've been lurking for ages and I pretty much agree 99.9% with posters like Rulakir, Veloran, Lauront, Kizuya, etc. Just my own thoughts too...

I also 100% agree with the themes presented in the game: happiness is hollow without sadness, we must all find our own meaning in life, etc. However, even though FF14 and FF in general has never been subtle, it just felt like a gorilla beating me with a sledgehammer with these 'themes', at the expense of the plot itself. It was all basically a victory lap for the Scions/WoL, and it also felt very meta, like Yoshida himself was praising us for sitting through this all. The music did the heavy lifting and it's as if someone locked Ishikawa in a dark closet for weeks with nothing but a bottle of booze and a copy of Undertale. I would say the sensation I felt the most was 'nausea'.

It was to the point where it made me reconsidered my agreement with these themes, and to ponder the merits of the opposite. Big backfire. Or was that the intent? Anyway, that Bitter Amaurotine caricature strawman in Venat's Chuunibyou Manifesto scene is the true hero. Take me back to Amaurot, where I can hang out with people who actually feel like natural and organic old friends and not bland rich kid book club snobs who just butter me up so I'll be their muscle. And frig off, live-laugh-love mary sue sparkleprincess, you aren't my mom.

I could write way way more about my thoughts on the characters and story elements, but that would basically take up a small novel. And I've already ranted about it all at length to my friends. Unless they make any antag more compelling than the Ancients/Ascians/Garleans, I may just tune out from the story/lore I have grown so attached to...

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Agreed. Personally i find it so disappointing getting to spend time with characters like Hythlo and Emet and Elidibus who i find far more interesting, and then having to go back to what i find, bland cardboard scions. Pretty sad that the antagonists are just so much more interesting than the protags. Especially given how long we’ve had to deal with them. Especially when they never suffer near the amount as antagonists do, story feels very one sided in that retrospect. Especially in an expansion that beats you in the head with suffering, it’s incredibly confusing when i can’t even think of a time the scions have suffered for a few expansions.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Here we go again ignoring context to suit your narrative.

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That’s rich coming from you Kizuya.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Not all creations had souls, it was random whether they gained souls or not but also incredibly rare.

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None of this is true. Souls are granted to beings the star deems as being capable of life in accordance with nature.

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As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

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Hermes makes clear that many of the animals we see in Elpis are not arcane entities, in our conversations on the lightning elementals he makes clear the distinction using the Petalouda as an example.

https://i.imgur.com/u8njZA5.jpg

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Most of them were soulless constructs. However if we’re going to start arguing over them killing soulless constructs, then you had better be waving your no-no stick at the scions and wol. Summoning primals in Eden just to kill them without their consent, summoning numerous familiars and egi’s just to let them get battered in battle etc. Funny how i never saw any of you arguing against it until the Ancients came into the picture. Seems like a heavy dose of situation bias to me. The eden primals’ lives were based on arbitrary utility so try again unless you’re willing to shame the wol and scions for it, in which case they’re not better than the ancients.

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You’re arguing against a strawman of your own creation again. I wish I could ask Hythlo if it also has a soul.

Remember I was the one who argued for that distinction so don’t pretend that I’ve contradicted that. Many creations were ensouled, this is a fact.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Yeah, I think the fact that Venat just kicked the can down the road is conveniently ignored.

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It's not ignored. Venat explains before we leave Elpis that she cannot go to the convocation for help because now Hermes is a member and she cannot let him find out the truth. If he does, he's likely to come to the exact same conclusions as before about how to handle Meteion. It's also very important to remember that the only reason the ancients survived the final days at all in the first place is because Hermes (as Fandaniel) engineered the plan to summon Zodiark and fight back against Meteion. Venat could not risk making an enemy of Hermes before Zodiark was summoned.

Before erasing his own memory, it's clear Hermes's goal was to test humanity fairly, and we have every reason to believe that Hermes would oppose Venat, because by escaping the memory wipe, she essentially "cheated." We also don't really know how long Venat had to act between the events of Elpis and the final days, so there's no reason to assume she had plenty of time to come up with a better strategy for opposing Meteion.

And finally, it's very much possible that Venat simply realised that Hermes actually has a damn point about the way the ancient society functions, and how even preventing the final days would not necessarily lead to a brighter future for a people that delude themselves into believing they live only "for the benefit of the star" even when they clearly all have their own selfish reasons to live. And the combination of being selfish (which is natural - one can only live for their own reasons) but also having god-like powers AND a a belief in the righteousness of using those powers to decide the fate of "lesser" creatures is not a good one. We see first hand how Emet-Selch views humanity as it is in its sundered form, despite us knowing as players that the people of the Source and shards are not without value.

1/

It is clear that Venat does not agree with the convocation's point of view about it's importance over "lesser" beings. On the contrary, Venat does what she can to learn about us as a person, the world we live in and the people in it. She clearly empathises with us as explorers, sundered though we may be and does not automatically dismiss us as some lesser familiar but as a creature in our own right that actually isn't that dissimilar to the ancients themselves. In fact, she has the knowledge that the sundered WoL and friends are much more durable and capable than even an unsundered ancient in Lahabrea, Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

Despite that, Venat doesn't just give up on her own people and immediately sunder the world. She doesn't want to do that, and she pleads with the remaining ancients after Zodiark's summoning to change their ways because she knows if they continue down the path they're on they will fail. She doesn't WANT to believe that the ancients will continue to abuse their immense powers to alleviate their own suffering at the expense of others. She wants them to push through their despair and learn how to live with the inevitable suffering life will throw at them. But they don't.

And if you've ever dealt first hand with despair you'll know all too well that someone telling you "if you keep acting in despair, things will only get worse" doesn't help. Despair and suffering isn't something you can click your fingers and make vanish. But the ancients are powerful enough to cause irreparable damage to themselves and their world before they realise for themselves that they aren't making things better. So yeah, Venat does a terrible thing to them, and forces them to experience suffering without the physical power to fight back and destroy the star itself in the process. Because even though many will still suffer and ultimately fall to despair, it at least means those who do find something to live for and find happiness will not be destroyed.

Venat did tell the ancients of Meteion, which is why she had a small following the help her summon Hydaelyn, but they were vastly outnumbered and weaker in strength than those who did not heed her words and chose to follow Zodiark. Had she not sundered the world, the disciples of Zodiark would surely defeat them and proceed with their self-destruction.

2/2

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Originally Posted by Nabby

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2/2

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A lot of your post is speculation and headcanon supported by very little. For example, we don’t even know if Venat told the ancients of Meteion. We don’t even entirely know if she told her followers, they just knew that Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution. We don’t even know if they knew of the sundering or that they would be sacrificed, as in the Anamnesis cutscene, they only lament the loss of Venat. As far as the sundered being more durable than Elidibus or Emet etc. I really not sure how you came to that conclusion. We needed higher up entirety help everytime we fought against them lol. Venat is, in the end, a hypocrite and a liar. She preaches about suffering and hope, yet she inflicted mass amounts of suffering on her own people and gave up hope on them. Her confronting the ancients after the final days already hit means very little. She could have prevented the event altogether. Instead she kept quiet, lied, and let it all happen from what we’ve seen. She was friends with Emet, an incredibly intelligent individual. You mean to tell me the two of them couldn’t have figured something out? If Hermes is a problem Pandemonium exists for the time being. There were numerous ways she could have gone about it.

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Originally Posted by Nabby

It is clear that Venat does not agree with the convocation's point of view about it's importance over "lesser" beings. On the contrary, Venat does what she can to learn about us as a person, the world we live in and the people in it. She clearly empathises with us as explorers, sundered though we may be and does not automatically dismiss us as some lesser familiar but as a creature in our own right that actually isn't that dissimilar to the ancients themselves.

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Yeah, partly because...

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Venat: You know I am!
Venat: Now then, you are...?
Venat: I say...have you perchance come from the future?
Venat: I do not believe we have ever met, yet I sense my magick upon you.
Venat: Therefore if I wove the enchantment, I could only have done so at a later point in time.
Hythlodaeus: What manner of magick is this, if I may ask?

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In fact, she has the knowledge that the sundered WoL and friends are much more durable and capable than even an unsundered ancient in Lahabrea, Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

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First was severely weakened due to body hopping and was defeated whilst the blessing was active plus due to Thordan's presence as a primal. Second took 8 champions, all that built up lightwarden light, further soul fragment rejoining to wield that light plus the benefit of the Blessing. Third again took 8 champions and Emet-Selch's intercession. Thus the need for you to say "and friends" for the latter two in the first place... plenty of extrinsic help here.

I'd like a citation as to where she told any of the ancients about Meteion, because her faction does not mention it at any point during the Anamnesis Anyder scene. Even her moon janny is unaware of it. There is also no evidence she took on Hermes's view as such on creations. Her concern is specifically defeat of Meteion and avoiding the fate of the Plenty (which she feared would be the outcome of pursuing the perfection of the star.)

The reason Meteion and the song of oblivion are not mentioned during the Anamnesis Anyder cutscene is pretty simple: that cutscene came out before Endwalker and the revelations about Meteion were known to the playerbase. It'd be frankly, some pretty confusing and bad "maid and butler" dialogue for Venat and her followers to be all "as you are all already aware, Meteion and her song of oblivion continue even after Zodiark shrouds us temporarily her influence...". (Who's Meteion? Why is Venat telling her followers something they all already know? Why is this exposition so bad?)

Yes, so there isn't a single piece of evidence that can be adduced that she told either her followers or their broader society about Meteion and there is no basis on which to categorically state that she did. In fact we know she did not want it to become common knowledge:

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Venat: In spite of this, we cannot allow the report that set this calamity in motion to become common knowledge. Were the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control.

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So even if I were to grant that she had shared it with her followers, we know there was no intention to do so with the broader society, or the Convocation, for that matter.

I like the story. Though it's not the level of shb and has couple of drowbacks (imho). For me it would be better that wol still is dead in the end, and everyone decides how to live without him (but we've seen this in 1.0 shutdown already)

btw, has someone noticed any dialogue diffs with venat with a legacy acc? or is it all the same?

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

The reason Meteion and the song of oblivion are not mentioned during the Anamnesis Anyder cutscene is pretty simple: that cutscene came out before Endwalker and the revelations about Meteion were known to the playerbase. It'd be frankly, some pretty confusing and bad "maid and butler" dialogue for Venat and her followers to be all "as you are all already aware, Meteion and her song of oblivion continue even after Zodiark shrouds us temporarily her influence...". (Who's Meteion? Why is Venat telling her followers something they all already know? Why is this exposition so bad?)

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B-but….they always foreshadow everything right?! Everything is always planned! Tbf even if this was the case i don’t think it would’ve necessarily been bad info. It would leave people questioning and theorizing who is Meteion. what is this song of oblivion etc. It would at least be SOME reference to it rather than it being thrown in at the end of the story lol. This doesn’t change the fact though there’s no mention whatsoever of her followers knowing of the sundering or that they’d be sacrificed. I mean they wouldn’t even have to name Meteion. They could just say “the convocation is busy with Zodiark blah blah but we know he isn’t a true solution, the real foe is still here etc

I am so glad this thread is making me feel... sane? I resonate so very much with the viewpoints of KizuyaKatogami, Lauront and Rulakir. It's just incredibly comforting to know I'm not alone, especially when talking about a story I was so invested into for the last 5 years. For the past 2 months I feel like my mind has done nothing but incoherently rant about Endwalker, which often felt like screaming into the void. (I wonder how many of us who are vocally disappointed in EW are Ascian fans?)

I have a LOT of things to say and I'm not sure my brain is up to the task of organizing my points in any fashion that makes sense, but I'm going to give it a try :

- I thought this expansion was going to be about Hydaelyn and Zodiark? As it turns out, it's about Hydaelyn and The Sound. Zodiark was literally just an afterthought, a plot device to usher in the real plot. I keep seeing people say that making Zodiark more of a presence at all (or even just a more glorified fight than the level 83 trial, but I digress) would have been "predictable" and that they "subverted expectations", to which I would ask: is "subverting expectations" supposed to be a good thing when you hype something up for years? Does "predictable" have to mean bad and boring rather than a logical and satisfying climax? Perhaps people who argue this simply do not care this much about Zodiark and the Ascians. Fine enough, we all have different opinions on characters, but I just wish the writers did care more.

- "Zodiark couldn't have been much more than an empty husk anyway idk what you were expecting". Boy howdy I'm glad we get to talk about my favorite character and how he was treated in Shadowbringers onwards! And exactly what the 5.2 revelation of him being the literal acting consciousness of Zodiark had me expecting. I'm not going to lie, 5.2–5.3 was my favorite stretch of MSQ, but it left me with a twinge of disappointment: it felt way too rushed, in light of: 1. we're talking about literally the longest-standing antagonist in the story, aren't we? / 2. everything Emet revealed in 5.0 gave an entirely new context to Elidibus and Lahabrea both and it stood to reason (to me) that the writers would explore their PoV (nevermind the Bread being dead – has this ever stopped flashbacks?) / 3. LITERALLY ZODIARK!!
But I forgave patch 5.3 and what I felt was its super rushed character development, based on the premise that seemed completely, utterly, 100% obvious to me: 6.0 was going to be about Zodiark and Hydaelyn. Why would they casually tell us that Elidibus is/was Zodiark at the same time as they introduced Venat otherwise? Just to justify the power-up and epic fight in 5.3? Come on, obviously not – I mean, it was a cool fight – because like, are we just gonna leave him there locked up with his massive guilt over having failed to save anyone he loved? Without ever recognising and remembering Azem? Or remembering the oath he swore and to whom (us, it was us, wasn't it?), or what about the horror of realising he most likely forgot his name, his family? But he got his memories back at the last minute, so surely he has SO MUCH to tell. What if there is still a part of him inside Zodiark, barely still conscious and struggling against Fandaniel? And if there truly isn't, is there a way we could, uh, for lack of a better word, shove him back in there to fight off Zenos/Fandaniel? Or even just have him accompany us when we fight them? You wouldn't just not–

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

He also wasn't summoned back along with Emet and Hythlodaeus, wasn't present during their walk past us during the credits, and wasn't featured in the post-credit art either. Since he "died" sending the WoL to the past you think he'd be seen somewhere along the way.

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I felt this.
And when all is said and done, he finally, very literally, gave his soul to do something that would end up saving the planet from the apocalypse – literally his initial duty – this is ... never brought up by literally anyone at all .......?
Look, what I'm saying here, is that the entirety of 2021, with its Endwalker reveal, teasers and eventual release, was one year-long Mr Incredible becoming uncanny moment. I went through all of Endwalker in 3 days at release and all I got was this lousy minion of a genocidal, white-robed Ancient Heart of an Elder Primal, but it turned out not to be the one I ordered. (Cute dog though!)

- Going on an Elder Primal tangent here, what was the point of Hydaelyn being a Primal at all and the ominousness with which this information was treated? Nothing negative came out of her being the second oldest and second most powerful Primal of all time. Tempering? Endwalker hastily tosses out this potentially very problematic plot point. Sucking the aether dry? Well it seems she made this big crystal over time down there, but there doesn't seem to be any negative repercussions. Having sacrifices made in her name to fuel her? Oh golly no! Kicking her ass in an epic cinematic trial fight? Well, technically yes, but it was entirely on her terms and all according to her For The Greater Good plan, rather than out of any sort of disagreement about... well... everything.

- Oops sorry, I got a little sidetracked talking about Zodiark (and a bit of Hydaelyn)! Let's talk about all the Ascians that are still left then: how they feel now that the Unsundered are (largely) gone, how each of them relate to their Sundered status – we've seen 2.5 of them post-5.0 lore dump and they all had different takes on what being a reincarnated Convocation member meant to them –, how they feel about Fandaniel being a goddamned gremlin... surely at least some of them would oppose complete destruction of the Source? How about Gaia...? Oracle of Darkness...?
(shrugs)

- Better people than me have gone on at length in this thread about the genocide of the Ancients not being as justified in-universe as the writers would have seemingly liked it to be. Main reasons being: they could have most likely fought Meteion given proper information beforehand; they were capable of creating Dynamis-powered familiars (did this depressed edgelord not keep any record of his research?) and spacefaring bunnies (which implies that Ancients either had space travel capabilities themselves or that they could create familiars that eventually would do that for them); they could artificially diminish their own aether; they obviously dealt with negative emotions (Pandaemonium??????); they were full of hope for their planet and respected life (pretty much all Elpis sidequests)...

- But outside of these in-universe considerations, I wholly disliked how the story seemed to be very heavy-handed in how it wanted to make me feel. I feel like it very much wanted me to think Venat and Hermes had a point. Like they were good people driven to take terrible decisions because the Ancient world was a horrible, no-good, Stepford Smiler dystopia (ironically, there is a Stepford Smiler dystopia in this game... and it's a level 90 dungeon, with "smiley" trash mobs that cast spells like "Vacuity of Existence" (FR), and there are Hydaelyn glyphs all over it. Oops!). And yet I'm not sure how to interpret the scene of Hermes mourning the Lykaons as anything but a mentally unbalanced vegan having a far too over-the-top reaction to what was probably a frequent occurrence in a job he was not equipped to handle and literally should have never been doing in the first place for his own well-being. (A situation I have personally been in. Imagine how dissociated Hermes's character made me feel.)
Then of course, we also have the Ra-La guys, a contrived strawman presented to us as an obvious "gotcha" parallel, yet it seemed to me to be such a nebulous, hypothetical scenario (what is "perfect", and how would you ever reach such a state?) that I simply could not relate it to what the rest of the game showed me of the Ancients.
It feels like the story is gaslighting me about Venat and Hermes in particular to sweep under the rug the balanced, shades-of-grey Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict presented in Shadowbringers to not-so-subtly present Live-Laugh-Love's genocide in a much better light, like the writers are telling me "see? The Ascians didn't have this much of a point, because they were pretty bad and never had any hope against Meteion". We wouldn't want to feel too bad for them after all, would we?
And if that's the direction the story truly wants to go, then I am honestly not interested.

- Dynamis! For a concept brought into the story in its last part, Dynamis can sure do a lot, can't it? Never mind Limit Breaks (let's not even get into Seat of Sacrifice here by the way), it's the dark energy that can power little bird girls to travel to planets god knows how many light-years away, it can create an entire region of space and its inhabitants out of dark matter, it can also make said region of space tangible and create a breathable atmosphere there, it can make your remote teleporter appear out of nowhere after the final fight, because... well... you see... feelings. I saw one of the questions asked in the French Q&A thread (for the upcoming Live Letter) ask why Meteion would appear so short to us in Ultima Thule while she was initially supposed to be short only by Ancient standards when we see her in Elpis, and I'm afraid the answer here is obvious: Dynamis. Dynamis is Calvinball, where the rules are made up as the writers go along. If I had to give Dynamis itself a tangible, visible shape, it would be roughly plot-shaped.
Though by far its most remarkable accomplishment was telling us (though not convincingly, as far as I am concerned, but I realise I am very much told to accept it) the Sundered were just plain better than the Unsundered at dealing with the existential threat to the universe.

- It feels obvious the plot has been compressed to fit into 6.0. This has been brought up in this thread but it bears repeating: the final patches of post-ShB and the first third of Endwalker felt like they belonged to another expansion that was aborted. Zenos's dreams and his own self-hype taking the moon in his hand (lol) and going on about his infinite rage, Fandaniel's mention of Emet-Selch accomplishing...something...?, Y'shtola's horror at the core of the Tower of Zot that I didn't even know was actually expanded upon before reading it in this thread, the body swap plot that amounted to literally nothing (it was pretty hype but what was the point?) (can we talk about the fact that an Ascian literally just teleported and incapacitated the WoL out of nowhere???? lol). Anima even got his own MSQ-trial-like full-fledged artwork! Consider my expectations subverted again!
Ishikawa herself has mentioned she would have liked the story to conclude in 7.0 and 8.0, and wow, yeah, I get it.

- God I wish the Final Days had been so much more final and widespread and impactful because I found Thavnair to be super hype, but either this just wasn't meant to be that kind of apocalyptic game/story (completely understandable, have a nice day) or, again, this suffered from plot compression.

...

- As a conclusion of sorts, I will bring up this anecdote of my reaction to getting the Endsinger in trial roulette: it's undeniably epic and gorgeous, and it feels good as a fight. It feels unambiguously good and awesome, because you are literally kicking the personification of cosmic despair in the face with the power of hope, love, friendship and Calvinball. It's a much more fist-pumping moment than watching a man desperately flail at you because you are using against him the power that broke his world, erased his entire civilisation from History and in-all-but-name killed everyone he knew and loved, then quietly accepts defeat and asks you, the barely-recognisable remnant of his veryveryvery good friend (polite cough), to remember them as he fades away. It's also a much more fist-pumping moment than mercy killing the little brother figure neither you nor he remembers, as he dies remembering all the people that put their faith in him whom he could never save.
It just feels shallow.

Anyway. I have accepted that I am now solely looking forward to the Castlevania crossover, preferably with each new boss getting progressively gayer for Lahabrea, as Ancient Greek God Dracula basically yells "TITS OUT FOR LAHABREA" right in front of Lahabrea's estranged son and Elidibus. Let it be known that I am 100% here for this.

(If you've just read everything I wrote, whether you agree or not, thank you very much and, um, congratulations for being incredibly persistant in reading my ramblings.)

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Snip

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Elidibus is probably my second favorite character in the entire game so believe me when i tell you i relate to what you said so much. Both him and Zodiark got absolutely shafted in favor of other characters and it shows. He’s been built up since the beginning of the game and he only gets 2 patches to really shine and then gets a 5 minute cameo before sacrificing himself to save us which is also just never ever even brought up. He’s never shown again after that. Isn’t given a scene in the credits or on Ultima Thule. It’s just Emet Emet Emet. You can tell just how much the writers pander to the community honestly. We saw it first with Graha and now Emet and don’t get me wrong, i love Emet, but it’s like they completely ripped Elidibus’ role and presence away from him and gave it to Emet and Elidibus was just written off despite being the other heart in the saga of the two elder primals. Just so disappointing what they did with him and i’ll say it, imo it was an incredibly bad writing decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I am so glad this thread is making me feel... sane? I resonate so very much with the viewpoints of KizuyaKatogami, Lauront and Rulakir. It's just incredibly comforting to know I'm not alone, especially when talking about a story I was so invested into for the last 5 years. For the past 2 months I feel like my mind has done nothing but incoherently rant about Endwalker, which often felt like screaming into the void…

(If you've just read everything I wrote, whether you agree or not, thank you very much and, um, congratulations for being incredibly persistant in reading my ramblings.)

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Bravo. I read every word and I pretty much had the same observations throughout my play through of the msq during early access. For a while I was very disappointed and felt like I had nowhere to vent until I saw the threads popping up about it. It felt good to get it all of of my chest.

Now I feel like I’m finally ready to move on so I didn’t renew my sub. I just got an email today reminding me that my sub ends tomorrow lol. I feel like I stick around the forums now for entertainment cause there is definitely some hilarious drama that happens sometimes.

So essentially what we've gleamed from this thread is
https://i.imgur.com/2Tu99zO.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

So essentially what we've gleamed from this thread is
https://i.imgur.com/2Tu99zO.jpg

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The only thing this is missing is Venat shaking the hand of the WoL saying “You’re welcome for saving you all.” Stealing all his credit.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Elidibus is probably my second favorite character in the entire game so believe me when i tell you i relate to what you said so much. Both him and Zodiark got absolutely shafted in favor of other characters and it shows. He’s been built up since the beginning of the game and he only gets 2 patches to really shine and then gets a 5 minute cameo before sacrificing himself to save us which is also just never ever even brought up. He’s never shown again after that. Isn’t given a scene in the credits or on Ultima Thule. It’s just Emet Emet Emet. You can tell just how much the writers pander to the community honestly. We saw it first with Graha and now Emet and don’t get me wrong, i love Emet, but it’s like they completely ripped Elidibus’ role and presence away from him and gave it to Emet and Elidibus was just written off despite being the other heart in the saga of the two elder primals. Just so disappointing what they did with him and i’ll say it, imo it was an incredibly bad writing decision.

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YYyyep, I really, really felt the Emet fanservice in 6.0. And I mean, as an Elidibus fan, I felt it even more than usual lol. After (literally, if I remember correctly) jumping out of my seat at the prospect of going back to the First, I very quickly started dissociating more and more as Elpis went on. It got obvious the story would then be only about Hydaelyn and The Sound in full gear with no looking back, and this was purely going to be the Emet/Hythlo/Venat show with no one else.

By the time the credits rolled, my brain had checked out so completely that I even skipped Scion dialogue, which I never did before. And... uh... I hate to admit it, but I was also so exhausted and over everything that I failed to recognise who was talking in the Pandaemonium teaser lmaooo

Speaking of the single MSQ scene, I mostly loved it out of context; the game even graciously gave me the option to apologise to him, and he low-key sassed me for it, and then I sobbed like an idiot, etc. His last lines, from Zodiark to Hydaelyn, melancholic and slightly teasing, are perfect. Only... we got none of that, actually. We never really got him as Zodiark, we never saw him interact with Venat or Hydaelyn. This line feels like it's teasing me with a story I would have liked so much more only to never give it to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

So essentially what we've gleamed from this thread is
https://i.imgur.com/2Tu99zO.jpg

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I see nothing here but true facts no lies detected

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Originally Posted by Teraq

YYyyep, I really, really felt the Emet fanservice in 6.0. And I mean, as an Elidibus fan, I felt it even more than usual lol. After (literally, if I remember correctly) jumping out of my seat at the prospect of going back to the First, I very quickly started dissociating more and more as Elpis went on. It got obvious the story would then be only about Hydaelyn and The Sound in full gear with no looking back, and this was purely going to be the Emet/Hythlo/Venat show with no one else.

By the time the credits rolled, my brain had checked out so completely that I even skipped Scion dialogue, which I never did before. And... uh... I hate to admit it, but I was also so exhausted and over everything that I failed to recognise who was talking in the Pandaemonium teaser lmaooo

Speaking of the single MSQ scene, I mostly loved it out of context; the game even graciously gave me the option to apologise to him, and he low-key sassed me for it, and then I sobbed like an idiot, etc. His last lines, from Zodiark to Hydaelyn, melancholic and slightly teasing, are perfect. Only... we got none of that, actually. We never really got him as Zodiark, we never saw him interact with Venat or Hydaelyn. This line feels like it's teasing me with a story I would have liked so much more only to never give it to me.



I see nothing here but true facts no lies detected

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Someone else brought this up but it rings so true regarding Elidibus. Why is freakin hermes on the ending art and Elidibus wasnt? Theres just so many things with Elidibus that are irritating with how much they shafted him lol. Tbh, i also skipped those scenes my first time through after i realized the plot was going incredibly downhill. Such a shame because i think thavnair and garlemald were done so well.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Bravo. I read every word and I pretty much had the same observations throughout my play through of the msq during early access. For a while I was very disappointed and felt like I had nowhere to vent until I saw the threads popping up about it. It felt good to get it all of of my chest.

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Yeah, I burned through MSQ in 3-4 days while my friends hadn't and insisted on no spoilers. I turned to social media only to find out everyone found it better than ShB and it was so beautiful and more than everything they ever hoped for and they cried so much oh my god get your tissues ready if you haven't finished it yet!!!

Thankfully my friends got done with MSQ late December and they mostly share my opinions so now we can have our own little echo chamber, which is a terrible thing to say, but boy I have to admit it feels good.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Why is freakin hermes on the ending art and Elidibus wasnt?

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This is the exact moment my brain gave up and died. Who are you and why would you deserve to be on the ending artwork to this 10-year saga?

In retrospect, Garlemald was my favorite standalone part of the story. Such a brilliant, oppressive atmosphere and human pathos.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Someone else brought this up but it rings so true regarding Elidibus. Why is freakin hermes on the ending art and Elidibus wasnt? Theres just so many things with Elidibus that are irritating with how much they shafted him lol. Tbh, i also skipped those scenes my first time through after i realized the plot was going incredibly downhill. Such a shame because i think thavnair and garlemald were done so well.

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Yeah I definitely think they did Elidibus wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teraq

In retrospect, Garlemald was my favorite standalone part of the story. Such a brilliant, oppressive atmosphere and human pathos.

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Garlemald was my favorite part too. I think they should’ve had an entire expansion for Garlemald.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Bravo. I read every word and I pretty much had the same observations throughout my play through of the msq during early access. For a while I was very disappointed and felt like I had nowhere to vent until I saw the threads popping up about it. It felt good to get it all of of my chest.

Now I feel like I’m finally ready to move on so I didn’t renew my sub. I just got an email today reminding me that my sub ends tomorrow lol. I feel like I stick around the forums now for entertainment cause there is definitely some hilarious drama that happens sometimes.

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I'm waiting to see how the short stories/interviews wrap up stuff before making a decision, in all honesty. If I don't like the future direction at all, I may do the same, or just ignore the story, depending on how bad it was. Same if Pandaemonium turns into "ancients bad" nonsense - yeah, no thanks. The MMO market may be slim pickings at the moment, but I'm not desperate for one and there's alternatives even if imperfect.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

So essentially what we've gleamed from this thread is
https://i.imgur.com/2Tu99zO.jpg

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Truly. At least the Minstrel's words for Hades, Elidibus and Zodiark (and by implication, the ancients) acknowledges their huge sacrifices. I don't have an issue with Venat getting some of the credit. I do take great exception to their legacy though being just that of these mustache twirlers who, for "no reason", just decided they want to sacrifice all the worlds to their dark god, when in reality that's abject nonsense and they have now sacrificed their world for the sake of the sundered, while she's remembered as the supreme "hero is" deity. Y'shtola is committed to chronicling the tale of the ancients - let's hope she puts all that in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Elidibus is probably my second favorite character in the entire game so believe me when i tell you i relate to what you said so much. Both him and Zodiark got absolutely shafted in favor of other characters and it shows. He’s been built up since the beginning of the game and he only gets 2 patches to really shine and then gets a 5 minute cameo before sacrificing himself to save us which is also just never ever even brought up. He’s never shown again after that. Isn’t given a scene in the credits or on Ultima Thule. It’s just Emet Emet Emet. You can tell just how much the writers pander to the community honestly. We saw it first with Graha and now Emet and don’t get me wrong, i love Emet, but it’s like they completely ripped Elidibus’ role and presence away from him and gave it to Emet and Elidibus was just written off despite being the other heart in the saga of the two elder primals. Just so disappointing what they did with him and i’ll say it, imo it was an incredibly bad writing decision.

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I have mixed feelings about 5.3. On the one hand, I like how they essentially mirrored a WoL in him, with how he's willing to endure any pain and suffering, even to the loss of his identity, to bring his duty to completion. I think Elidibus is by far one of the most heroic personas in the story, alongside Hades, in how they would both labour for 12k years, in near complete desolation, playing the role of villain as necessary, to rectify what they saw as a great injustice done to their kind. However, I was somewhat let down by how they concluded his focus on the balance of dark and light and jettisoned him from his more conciliatory Emissary stance, which as you say went to Emet.

I think there were just way too much stuff to wrap up in one expansion (or patch).
Garlemald, Zodiark, Venat and Hydaelyn, Zenos, the Final Days, some parts didn't have enough time to develop and in the end it felt flat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Yeah, I burned through MSQ in 3-4 days while my friends hadn't and insisted on no spoilers. I turned to social media only to find out everyone found it better than ShB and it was so beautiful and more than everything they ever hoped for and they cried so much oh my god get your tissues ready if you haven't finished it yet!!!

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It was the story equivalent of getting wasted, then waking up in bed with an ogre next to you that you thought was beautiful at the time. Very easy to get swept up in the music, though there were some moments that got me. And speaking of characters who were wasted/forgotten, what about Regula van Hydrus? The man who was the equivalent of General Leo from FFVI, the emperor's best friend since childhood, who sacrificed himself for a boy? No mention, but I haven't gotten around to the Garlemald sidequests yet... Also, lots of mourning for Moenbryda, but nothing about Nabriales, the man that she sacrificed herself to stop. Even Emet-Selch left him out (and poor Deudalaphon who may as well not exist) in his quick rundown of the Convocation seats in Elpis. Poor lads.

Also, your brain lasted longer than mine. I was practically comatose and beseeching Ra-La by the 23rd 2000-word Scion speech about the better brighter tomorrow, stand tall my friend, hope hope hopey hope hope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The MMO market may be slim pickings at the moment, but I'm not desperate for one and there's alternatives even if imperfect.

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Oh for sure. I’m actually at a point in my life where I’m trying to spend less time sitting at a computer desk (my irl job requires me sitting in front of several computer screens for 8-12 hours each shift). So I’ll definitely be looking into things like VR or anything that would help me get more movement in while also having fun.

They got my attention since SHB with the new direction of storytelling and it had so much potential. But I think I had to remember that this is an mmorpg so it wasn’t a good idea to get too invested in the story. Better to read a good book for that I suppose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Garlemald was my favorite part too. I think they should’ve had an entire expansion for Garlemald.

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And preferably actually involving Gaius, Cid and Nero.

No, I'm serious here. I like Maxima and Lucia, but... OH come on!

I am especially offended by Nero not getting a single voiced line, in fact having literally less presence than (checks notes) Livia and Rhitahtyn. Actually, did anyone else find that dungeon weird? I mean I have no issue with the choice of end boss, if we're gonna die on this Fandaniel hill then let us die on it, but why Livia and Rhitahtyn?? We had Ilberd and Papalymo in a trash pack, and then we saw Moenbryda and Haurchefant. So, then... why not Nabriales and Charibert, right?

And then after the trial we get Elidibus's soul to pop up and lecture Venat on how she gave up hope on them all and robbed them of a chance to even properly pass Hermes's stupid "test", and... Wait no sorry, that's my unwritten AU fanfic.

(edit)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Also, lots of mourning for Moenbryda, but nothing about Nabriales, the man that she sacrificed herself to stop. Even Emet-Selch left him out (and poor Deudalaphon who may as well not exist) in his quick rundown of the Convocation seats in Elpis. Poor lads.

Also, your brain lasted longer than mine. I was practically comatose and beseeching Ra-La by the 23rd 2000-word Scion speech about the better brighter tomorrow, stand tall my friend, hope hope hopey hope hope.

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I have to commend you here for somehow mentioning darling Nabs before I did.

Also idk but the Crystal voice in 5.3 had me convinced Deudalaphon was a woman, with how high-pitched it sounded if I recall correctly. Halmarut, who was also Professor Not Appearing In This Saga, notably got a deep-voiced crystal while we literally never saw or heard him anywhere else.
(This totally raises the issue of Mitron sounding slightly higher-pitched than Loghrif, andthat is its own can of worms!)