Removing elemental nukes from WHM

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Ah here it is.

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Nice find Shougun.

Very interesting... O.o /nod

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Originally Posted by MuCephei

Hopefully, the restrictions will enable CNJ, and the other classes, to excel at...something. There is absolutely no excuse for classes being completely abandoned in favor of jobs for ALL content. Why should we even have classes if there is no use for them, other than leveling?

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Classes are not abandoned. Classes give you more flexibility because you can combine the abilities of more other classes. There aren't going to be new restrictions like "jobs cant do this but classes can". You class is not "abandoned" when you're using the job. The class is like a foundation, upon which the job is built.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Ah here it is.

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I don't accept an unofficial translation.

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Classes are not abandoned.

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Did you play FFXIV after the jobs were implemented? ... WTF is THM?! BLM or GTFO!

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Classes give you more flexibility because you can combine the abilities of more other classes.

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Yes, I know.

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There aren't going to be new restrictions like "jobs cant do this but classes can".

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Why not? THM can AoE sanguine rite with CNJ's sacred prism ability. I would like to see more abilities used somewhat like that in ARR.

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You class is not "abandoned" when you're using the job. The class is like a foundation, upon which the job is built.

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touché :)

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Originally Posted by MuCephei

Did you play FFXIV after the jobs were implemented? ... WTF is THM?! BLM or GTFO!

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You likely got that reaction when you were in a party...which makes sense, as in party situations where players are given a specific role, jobs far outshine classes.

However I must ask you...did YOU play XIV after jobs were released...solo? There are many solo or low-man situations where activating your job actually hindered you more than it helped, because you weren't as flexible. For instance, if I was farming with someone, I would often use THM - so I could both deal a lot of damage and cure enough to keep my partner alive.

THAT is the general idea of classes and jobs ... classes work better when you need to be flexible, jobs are you taking on a specific role based on the primary image of your class.

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You likely got that reaction when you were in a party...which makes sense, as in party situations where players are given a specific role, jobs far outshine classes.

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/nod ...yes, mhm...

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However I must ask you...did YOU play XIV after jobs were released...solo? There are many solo or low-man situations where activating your job actually hindered you more than it helped, because you weren't as flexible.

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Yes, I did many things solo; in fact, I would say 80% of my time in FFXIV was duoing stuff with my brother and/or soloing. Yes, I know about the flexibility; pretty much all of my posts on this thread have been about the "flexibility" of classes.

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For instance, if I was farming with someone, I would often use THM

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ditto

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THAT is the general idea of classes and jobs ... classes work better when you need to be flexible, jobs are you taking on a specific role based on the primary image of your class.

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Right...Right...I understand. Classes=Solo/Lowman and Jobs=Party/Large Group

However, that doesn't explain why a WHM is better at soloing than a CNJ. This thread has proved that fact.

I can see how White Mage would be better solo for things (keep yourself alive quite well), but "better" is a pretty vague word. Without a doubt WHM is less flexible than CNJ because of the limited ability pool... and again, classes as a whole were not "abandoned", which is mostly what I was addressing.

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Did you play FFXIV after the jobs were implemented? ... WTF is THM?! BLM or GTFO!

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Actually, often the opposite was considered true.

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THM can AoE sanguine rite with CNJ's sacred prism ability

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Yes- this is an example of the advantages of a class vs job- it also isn't NEW. Classes give you this increased flexibility to use more abilities of different classes than jobs allow- So just as jobs offer their own unique abilities, so too do classes with abilities set that the job can't set due to the set 2 classes the job is restricted to borrowing from.

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Right...Right...I understand. Classes=Solo/Lowman and Jobs=Party/Large Group

However, that doesn't explain why a WHM is better at soloing than a CNJ. This thread has proved that fact.

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It isn't about solo/lowman vs party/large group. Beyond that, the real purpose of this thread, replacing cnj/whm elemental nukes with astral/holy magic, doesn't really change anything. Flexibility can also be demanded in party situations- People would take THM over BLM often because THM could still nuke well but also have cure and raise.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Actually, often the opposite was considered true.

Yes- this is an example of the advantages of a class vs job- it also isn't NEW. Classes give you this increased flexibility to use more abilities of different classes than jobs allow- So just as jobs offer their own unique abilities, so too do classes with abilities set that the job can't set due to the set 2 classes the job is restricted to borrowing from.

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This is just my opinion, but since this topic is already so derailed I may as well--the number of situations where classes are preferred is incredibly low. Because I want to use THM instead of BLM for an hour every couple days does NOT make it valuable.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

This is just my opinion, but since this topic is already so derailed I may as well--the number of situations where classes are preferred is incredibly low. Because I want to use THM instead of BLM for an hour every couple days does NOT make it valuable.

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I'm totally fine with the number of situations where classes are preferred. Classes are foundations upon which jobs are built- They sometimes have their advantages, however.

I dunno why people are demanding that just because we have jobs now, that classes still have to be star attractions. They have their purpose- If you really want to go against the grain you can use them for just about anything honestly- Few of the jobs so totally transform their class that you could never use the class alone.

It's also rather presumptuous to say anything about how classes and jobs will be used in ARR because many classes and jobs are recieving significant changes- Monk most of all according to SE.

To try and steer the conversation back out of a "class vs. job" war, I am going to post the pro's and cons, pointed out by people regarding the OP.

Pro's
- Elemental affinity would improve if the spells were simplified onto one job.
- BLM's would become a little more flexible to the situation, and overall mechanic would be slightly improved.
- WHM's would have access to their iconic divine spells in previous FF's, beyond Holy.
- WHM's spells would resist less, but be strong against less.
- All elements would be on an even playing field.

Cons
- Lore would have to be modified.
- WHM would lose elemental affinity of the standard elements.
- BLM would lose some skills
- The animations would have to be reworked.

Well that is the current gist of what everyone has been saying in here. If I have missed an obvious one, please don't hesitate to correct me and I will edit this post.

We can throw back arguments at each other all day and get nowhere, however a dot point list of pro's and con's is potentially a good start to making some form of middle ground.