Zodiark's Codex entry what do we think about it?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I still don't think what they were sacrificing needs to be specific or is necessarily important. With this, I always step back and break it down on what the story needs that third sacrifice to be to make sense.

1. It can't be an option that was always safe and available, or else the Convocation would've looked stupid for not doing it the first time.
2. It can't be an option that's just unobjectionably safe and preferable, or else Venat's group would've looked stupid for objecting to it.
3. It still has to be goddamn huge, or else the plan doesn't make sense on both a narrative and logical level.

We can rule out that it involved sacrificing more Ancients, because that was never how it was described by either Fake Hythlodaeus or Venat's group. But beyond that, all we have is its weight; that it's a sacrifice big enough to sound that final alarm, and force that argument of 'save our past versus save our future'. I don't think we'll ever get an answer to what that is, nor do I think the story would actually benefit from them being specific, because ultimately, this comes down to an uncertain moral question that's intended to not have a 'right answer'. Giving us objective specifics would just lead to people deciding there is a more objective and specific answer.

The third sacrifice was whatever would have made you in that context either go 'this is too far and needs to be stopped by any means' or 'I can understand why people would object but it's for the greater good'. I have my own internal answer to that, but I won't share it, because if I do I know that's just going to lead to people trying to tear down my internal reading that works for me, rather than trying to find an answer that works for them.

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I know that we will probably never get any more details on what the new generation was beyond whatever it was had a soul and that they needed to cultivate it. I also know we probably won't also get a glimpse of the Convocation's thought process or any theorizing on if Zodiark can run on only souls or if the souls already in them could be replaced with stuff that didn't contain souls. Or how much their tempering effected their decision making. Let alone if they still held the same beliefs about souls needing to be allowed to return to the star. Or if not then when and why did it change when it came to the 3rd sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Well that's why it makes more sense if the third sacrifice involved animals/creatures. Otherwise we have to believe that a society who's so against people being robbed of their purpose, and have the same emotion as humans, are fine with their children going into zodiark to replace the souls inside it.

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It doesn't matter if it was plants and animals or people we know that whatever the new generation was that it had souls attached to it. A huge shared core belief of the Ancients was that souls regardless of what it was in should return to the star or have that ability to do so. The fact that they were going to shove more into Zodiark just to get the first two out means they either still held on to that belief, but didn't care for whatever reason or it changed at some point in time. Or and I doubt we will ever get told Zodiark could have only been able to run on souls or if any aether could work. So that if they still held that belief they would need to continue to replace any they put inside of Zodiark. Yet if it changed at any point in time when and why. Where again I doubt we will ever see any kind of insight.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I know that we will probably never get any more details on what the new generation was beyond whatever it was had a soul and that they needed to cultivate it. I also know we probably won't also get a glimpse of the Convocation's thought process or any theorizing on if Zodiark can run on only souls or if the souls already in them could be replaced with stuff that didn't contain souls. Or how much their tempering effected their decision making. Let alone if they still held the same beliefs about souls needing to be allowed to return to the star. Or if not then when and why did it change when it came to the 3rd sacrifice.

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Yeah, to clarify I was agreeing with you and adding my own thoughts; we'll likely never get this information (I think for good reasons), so it's left to us to mentally fill the gaps given the shape provided.

We won't learn what the third sacrifice is, but we know what everyone's responses to it was, so we should fill in the blank with whatever makes those responses make sense to us on a personal level.

I'm more curious what Zodiark's trueself was suppose to be before it got hijacked.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Well that's why it makes more sense if the third sacrifice involved animals/creatures. Otherwise we have to believe that a society who's so against people being robbed of their purpose, and have the same emotion as humans, are fine with their children going into zodiark to replace the souls inside it.

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For a while we weren't clear on whether the current races were intended to be direct descendants of the Ancients or some kind of "new life" existing alongside them that they would have harvested.

It also wasn't clear whether they valued all Ancient life equally or if there might be something in the scope of "sacrifice those distant tribes to revive the superior Amaurotines" kind of attitude going on.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I'm more curious what Zodiark's trueself was suppose to be before it got hijacked.

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I'm... not sure I follow what you're unsure about? Like, there's a couple possible answers but none of them seem to be what you're thinking of.

1. If you mean 'what Zodiark looked like originally', I think he always looked like how we saw him in Endwalker, just... y'know, with more limbs. I don't see any indication that this ever changed; either the Watcher, Fandaniel or Hydaelyn would've mentioned it changing if it ever did.

2. If you mean 'what was in Zodiark before Fandaniel swooped in', the answer was confirmed to be 'nothing'. It was a mech without a pilot. The other souls that comprised it were freaking out, that's what we saw just before the trial, but nobody was in the proverbial 'pilot's seat', because that was Elidibus' job. And honestly, I feel like we know more about Elidibus at this point than any of us reasonably would've thought to ask about. (and a lot more than a few of us actually cared about.)

So if it's not either of those... what are you talking about? I genuinely don't follow.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

Basically this. Was never an outright order per se, but there sure was a lot of peer pressure to offer yourself to the Zodiark machine. If even Hythlodaeus was persuaded.... Poor guy, he always gave me lacking self-esteem vibes personally. How low does one have to be relegated to to think outright offing oneself is the best they can contribute to the greater good?

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I always though that the solution was proposed, and when decided, they asked for volunteers with a vague statement that if they didn't get enough, they would have to start making decisions. That would create a lot of peer pressure, yeah, especially since we know people were 'divided over the fate of the star', so I imagine there was a lot of 'I'm very important and you're not, you should do it' encouragement.

I don't think Hythlodaeus was lacking self-esteem. Look how he talks to Emet in Elpis. I think if the volunteer-to-commanded thing was true, Hyth would have been one of the first to raise his hand, to spare someone else. If you want a real heartbreak, if there were not enough volunteers first, it's possible that scene was Hyth telling Emet that he had taken Emet's position when Emet was randomly selected, and Emet is reacting to losing his best friend, realizing the sacrifice just made for him, and vowing to pay him back somehow before closing his fist in anger. Maybe even questioning if he himself would have made the same decision.