The new raiding meta is making me want to quit.

Had a tank today during Thordan-EX phase one. Went as a Dragoon. DPS mode is win!

Died on the first phase because he dropped grit. His first reaction?

"Warrior, Put up Path."

No acceptance of their own fault, no trying to accommodate the team. Just blaming everyone. This is where I struggle with tanks - and where my own stubborn pride comes in.

In my opinion, if you die without Tank stance up, that is 110% on you. The only time it could be considered NOT on you is if you literally just weren't getting healed at all in a time when you should be getting healed (Like if Living Dead hits 0.)

Yeah. Cause it's not like i've gotten yelled at today for staying in tanking stance and for my friend not doing enough damage on blm as we leveled (Kinda regretting coming back). I mean, the whm staying in cleric stance the whole time and screaming at me to pull more and at the blm for healing me when i'd drop down to 1000hp or less without cleric stance being removed. If i feel comfortable with a group i'll do so. I always did back in 2.0. But it's not like you can't give tanks/healers MORE to do than just heals damage and mitigation. Enfeebling or enhancing magic that has positive effect, or perhaps switching many of the insta kill mechanics to be less forgiving on time to DO them, but reduce issue. I might start a general discussion thing on just what sort of things classes could have changed that would add to them without taking a thing away. Giving MORE options is always better. Just like in FFXI, as a whm. I could switch into MAB gear and pop a holy (Or holy 2 later) into a Fusion or light right after a Banish III for VERY solid damage. Or if the mob was resistant to say, enfeebles(not immune which few were. They might have ONE that couldn't effect them but rare was there a 100% immune) and was a caster. Instead of going for that you could spend the MP to throw out a silence that would have a MUCH better chance of hitting.

On the mob side of things to fix some of these issues (or at least move away from everything is a DPS check) give a debuff that lasts until fight ends instead of some high damage or tank buster in some cases. With each debuff it stacks worse. So if you manage to handle the mechanic and get no debuff? Win even if it takes time. Imagine if in a boss fight you could have extra chests(With relevant gear in them rather than instances = stones not gear which is how it was pretty much all of 2.0) for not failing those mentioned mechanics. If you get 2 or more failed mechanics that AoE that debuffs you? Destroys the chest. You lose loot and possibly extra currency or other neat stuff. Adding nothing but vert gear progression, terrible optimization for heals and tanks for DPS aside from crafted for right side (Which is how it has ALWAYS been) unless you get crafted gear or cheap out on DPS accessories isn't a great option. Even something as simple in 2.0 of having unique avatar weapons woulda been better. Ifrit/Garuda/titan ALL having the same item level. But ifrit gave increased damage, while Titan would be reduced damage taken, with a bit of enmity for the tanks, and more survivability on DPS/healer weapons at the expense of damage and max MP. Garuda would seem to be the odd one out, but wind is normally associated with speed so the weapons could have thrown out higher speed. A high strength build with a garuda weapon(With speed) Might have been an ideal tank weapon for damage depending on build. Faster softer hits or with ifrit's weapon bigger slower hits, or titan's weapons making the players more defensive. Even this simple change would have opened ways for new mechanics to added AND would have made all the primals farmed at the time because it wouldn't have been about item level, it would be about what you were currently setting up to do. To be honest, this is why FFXI was so much more enduring on content. You had so many items that lasted beyond their item level, and even at 75 you had RoTZ, Promy, and Treasures. All giving great gear often for varying purposes. There were bad parts to FFXI. It was slow at the start. Yes. It eased people in too gradually on what they could do. And mobs would kick your teeth in. Not sure if that's bad. Because exploring open world dungeons(Or at least non instanced) ones were nice.

I mean if nothing else why not make a nice big open world dungeon where you can get drops like the Sky gods or any of the expacs. Summon the mob. Kill it. Get possible gear and a new item. Summon newer bigger mob. Repeat. Work together and build up multiple pop sets. Give a damned reason for people to be cordial to each other AND with the varying levels of mobs you could often times have people pulled in to help or be carried a little. But it wasn't real carrying. Someone was learning or just not good enough for what your LS could do? Ok. But if they say, helped with all the farming for pops, did well and were a positive person in the LS you could bet your ass that the people in the LS would stand by them when it came time to fight. This gives a sense of community even beyond Link shells and allows for easier mentoring and still having fun with challenging fights (because each boss you fight with the pop order is harder than the last and if you wipe on one you lose the pop. This means you can go through all sorts of stuff and push your limits. And it also means you might want extra pops being held by people who'd work together for it).

Mostly rambled at the end there about how you could go about doing things to stave off the issues that come from attitudes in this game, but to be fair the attitudes in this game are a direct result of the people who made it being relatively incompetent since they've seen the same things repeat endlessly. I'm not going to say you shouldn't learn to DPS. If my friends are healing or I feel out the healer (And I do tell them the first pull or two is me testing the water for how the group works together) I will switch to sword oath and continue to use food to assist in my damaging making adjustments as needed. But i feel the issue is that so many people are NOT capable of pulling double duty. Healers AND tanks I've seen since I've been back that tunnel vision into DPS mode. Many i've talked to rationally if they're not spewing profanity when I make a suggestion that we slow down, or ask them to not make my blm friend spam heals because I'm not getting them say they do it because they've felt pressed in every other group.

Again, I'm only recently back. And after being forced to go through the shit that was Ramuh and Leviathan I was less than happy. Also the whole "Oh hey i recruited 2 crystal braves. That's cool. We have FOUR companies? Being funded mostly by Uldah. Even more so with evidence of BRIBES? I swear to GOD that they just had a TV tropes wall filled with anything they could pull off the internet and Yoshida just walked into it each day and threw 2-3 darts for the writing and then walked out. It made so little sense. I forgive people who had the time between content NOT to see it all at once, but others i've talked to since i've come back ALL said that they more or less saw it (Except one person but she is a great healer. Always has been and trusts people too much. Even when there are plot holes large enough to comfortably hide New York City in. Although to be fair, I enjoyed Shiva a bit because it opened up some VERY good questions. I'd not be surprised if we found some similarities between Ifrit and the other primals and the summons in 10. Because what REALLY makes a primal. I'm a little unclear on all of the good King moogle, but Shiva gave herself for peace. Now, these are things that i'm hoping get answered, expounded upon and give me hope.

That will always be the case. If your actual DPS are not dishing out enough damage, the group will look at the tanks and healers to compensate.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

And to be frank, Tanks and Healers have been able to DPS since the advent of 2.0, but NOW it's a huge problem and everybody wants it to change?

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Its not that tanks and healers shouldn't DPS, its that this time they over did it making those roles focus more on DPS than their native responsibilities. When a healer says healing is extra and gets pissed off cause he has to heal at times during Thordan, something isn't right.

They have lost the balance, as a healer its cool I don't mind going to cleric and tossing some dmg here and there, as it should be. Not cool when I'm required to DPS or solo heal (depending on which healer you're playing) the >entire< instance to meet some stupid damage check which in my opinion is the worst mechanic ever to be introduced to these games.

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Originally Posted by Zephyranthes

That will always be the case. If your actual DPS are not dishing out enough damage, the group will look at the tanks and healers to compensate.

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This is only possible due to SE's expected tank and healer dps being so different (to the point of being disparate) from the potential tank/healer dps.

The difference in dps between an i210 tank wearing Full Vit and a Full Str is roughly a 30% increase in damage. The difference in dps between a tank in tank stance and the same tank in dps stance is about 30% (DRKs are around 20%). These combined lead to a Str tank in dps stance doing 169% the damage of a Vit tank in tank stance. That means that when Vit tanks are doing 800 dps Str tanks do 1300+. With 2 tanks in 8 man content this would be an increase of 1000 in total party dps.

Healers are expected to provide 0 dps, but can provide 400+ dps and as their are two healers that is an 800 increase in total party dps.

Combined together that is 1800 more dps and, as no dps class currently does more than 1600 dps, that is more than the equivalent of bringing a 5th dps to the fight.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Thats not mastering the class, its mastering the content, for mastering the class you do not need content - fact...

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Why are we splitting the two? It's important to be able to master both in the game you don't do one without the other and say you are good. You can't say I am a great monk but you can only do 1600 on a dummy and then 500 during a raid thats absolutely stupid.

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If you have to skip one skill inbetween cooldowns because avoiding mechanics is mastering the content but to know that you can fill a skill inbetween is mastering the class, you can not skip something you never learned to do!
It sums up, if you have to do 30 times exact perfect rota (savage) you can go outsite savage and see people drop A LOT on DPS because just doing 20 times the perfect rota and messed 10 times up... its not their fault that DPS sums up with each little mistake. What you expect is exactly that they are doing savage perfection outside of savage! The DPS lost from little mistakes depends on the job you are using but can be a huge difference!

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I'm not quite sure the point you are trying to make but that might be the language barrier so sorry for that, but as for expecting perfection outside of savage, I can't tell you enough times that I don't. Put this in DPS numbers, average DPS in alex normal with the gear people have now SHOULD be 800-1k. For a player doing a basic rotation (not doing optimal timings on buffs/oGCD's etc) with full eso gear and knowledge of the fight 800 shouldn't really be a problem. I think a dragoon hit 800 spamming just one skill. So with that being the average, I would be more than happy if thats what people were hitting. BUT THEY DON'T. The actual community average in something like A3 normal is like 500-800 and that is just ridiculous 500 is pre-heavensward numbers. Even 800 to be honest is low when the high numbers are around 1300 depending on the fight. Thats a 500 DPS difference, that is absolutely HUGE, but still 800 would be fine if that's the AVERAGE for the playerbase.

I know how DPS works, you don't have to try and explain to me what causes DPS losses I already know.

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Edit: Just to clarify -> You must not master the class to master the content and thats what makes it into a game!
Edit2: You can work hard to preform better, you can have fun doing so, but thats no longer a game then!
Its just like sports if you participate in a tournament - its no longer "for all", it has made sport into a highscore to see who is the best

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Mastering the class is useless without being able to perform with that class in the content, if you think otherwise then I have no idea what to even say to you because being able to perform a rotation on a training dummy does not mean you are a master at the class, being able to keep up DPS/heals/whatever and deal with whatever the game throws at you is mastering the class.
Of course its still a game, just because I want to get better at it, doesn't make it any less of a game.
Just because there is a professional scene in a game, doesn't stop it being a game. I don't treat FF like a job, I never did, I just got better at it and had fun doing it.

I find this is actually making people play healers and tanks more now. Dark knight,astro,warrior,scholar,whitemage are higher in numbers then pure dps now.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I find this is actually making people play healers and tanks more now.

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I would put "Tanks" and "Healers" in asterisks there.

Inclined to agree. If I'm playing WHM, I wanna heal. If I wanted to do DPS, I'd break my DRG out. I'm cool with healers tossing some DPS here and there, but it isn't/shouldn't be their core focus. We have DPS classes for a reason.

if that continues , reroll WAR , u can tank anything , u have utility (-10% dmg taken , slashing debuff , offtank if needed) , good single and good AoE dmg , can even heal himself , lots of Cds, and gain TP back !