Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

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Like I said, a buff is a buff and as far as that's concerned, I'm content.
But the core issue is that 3.X rotation still beats out the new 4.0 one.
I, for one, am very interested in the numbers your friends have and would like to see them if possible.
I want to make sure I didn't overlook anything...

(I can get you RyeMinx's numbers if he doesn't reply to you, btw)

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Would it be possible to show me your numbers with the new Blizz/Fire IV 2.8 cast time? I'm getting different results.

139,3057081 PPS (3.0) vs 140,1707923 PPS (4.0) which means 4.0 is now slightly ahead if performed perfectly.

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Add Foul to both UI cycles and that becomes 152 VS 149 pps, favouring the 3.X one. If the base MP buff (and the no MP Foul) allow for the 3.X rotation to get one more Fire IV, then the 3.X rotation yields around 155 pps.

But these changes buffs both 3.x and 4.0 rotation equally, so while nice they are adding buffs, unless there are other changes they didn't document it won't really change the status quo.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Add Foul to both UI cycles and that becomes 152 VS 149 pps, favouring the 3.X one. If the base MP buff (and the no MP Foul) allow for the 3.X rotation to get one more Fire IV, then the 3.X rotation yields around 155 pps.

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But foul is on a static timer as long as you manage to keep Enochian active, so you will cast the same amount of them in the 3.x or 4.0 rotations. The timing on when you cast them may change, but ultimately you will cast the same amount of them in both rotations, thus you shouldn't really include foul in any calculations comparing the 2. The recast time of F4 won't change the amount you are able to cast either, only how fast you can burn through your mp, and you were already able to cast 5xF4 in the 3.x rotation before your mp dips too low, that's not gonna change.

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Originally Posted by Thela

But foul is on a static timer as long as you manage to keep Enochian active, so you will cast the same amount of them in the 3.x or 4.0 rotations. The timing on when you cast them may change, but ultimately you will cast the same amount of them in both rotations, thus you shouldn't really include foul in any calculations comparing the 2.

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Exactly. Foul is a constant in both rotations so it doesn't affect their PPS disparity.

@Galvuu NP. ^^ I'll post them (after a quick review) after I get home from work!

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Originally Posted by Thela

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I got this on Reddit too... there's something about the Foul placement in the rotation (especially the 3.X one) that people forget.

Where you cast Foul has huge implications on your overall pps (and, by consequence, dps) of your overall rotation.
On your UI cycle, you have the options of casting the T3 dot (which, depending on clipping, is likely gonna net you 300+ potency) or, if you're lucky, a TC proc (500+ potency, again guestimatng for clipping), Blizzard IV (the most horrid pps out of all our viable spells) and Foul.
You need to cast two things in your UI cycle to get your whole mana back (save for server tick nonsense).
This means that if you don't cast Foul in your UI cycle, whatever spell you replace it by is going to yield a massive loss in pps in your UI cycle and, by extension, your whole rotation.
This is why casting Foul in your AF rotation is terrible (aside from AF refresh issues)- it's terrible because now you're forced to shove a crappy filler on your UI cycle that brings your whole pps down (because you need to wait those two ticks).
The fact 3.X can afford to bypass B4 and go T3>Foul in UI is why it yields higher pps.
This is also why you use the 4.0 rotation when you have whatever necessary cooldowns available- to ensure you realign your Foul clock so you can Foul on every Ui cycle of your 3.X rotation.

If you want to think the way you are thinking, then you need to push that idea all the way- account for all spells in the entire fight.
If you Foul out of UI alignment often, at the end, you'll have a bunch of B4s and Blizzards and overwritten T3s and other useless nonsense.
A person who doesn't will have instead a bunch of Fires and Fire IVs.
Aka: a person that uses the 3.X with Foul only and 4.0 when they won't get Foul/Foul is sure to not be ready on the next UI cycle will slowly push ahead a pps lead over the whole fight.

Now you can say "well, ok, so I just B4 as filler if I don't have Foul and go into 4.0". Exactly- that's why you compare both with Foul.
That's why you use 3.X if you have Foul (on the head-to-head with Foul available, 3.X wins) and 4.0 otherwise (out of necessity, but it's surely convenient that it has a slight pps lead).
Further, you can make it so that you only use this 4.0 thing when you have Triple (Triple makes 4.0 beat 3.X in pps by a hair). Using it this way also reduces its vulnerability to mechanics, so it all wraps around very nicely for us.

This is all consequence of the fact that you need to cast two things in your UI cycle, and all non-Foul options are utter rubbish.

tl;dr: don't think of Foul in a vacuum. Understand that whenever Foul is available for UI the 3.X rotation yields higher pps, and when it's not you do the 4.0 both out of necessity (B4 is the only realistic filler spell) and because it also has a very slight pps lead over the 3.X one without Foul. Bonus points because you can align Triple with it every time.

that .2 sec is waaay to small a buff.., agree, it won't change the status quote

atleast tripple cast can be used/timed more for mechanics and not sav3f

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Add Foul to both UI cycles and that becomes 152 VS 149 pps, favouring the 3.X one. If the base MP buff (and the no MP Foul) allow for the 3.X rotation to get one more Fire IV, then the 3.X rotation yields around 155 pps.

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Oh and just one more thing RQ. You can't add foul. Not only because it is a constant in both, but it will never be in the same place in a rotation unless the rotation is exactly 30 seconds, which is neither the case for 3.0 and 4.0. If you add Foul, it inevitably will yield a higher PPS in a shorter rotation and vice-versa for a longer one, which is exactly what is giving the 3.0 rotation an edge in your calculations. But that is false since Foul is in a set timer and, therefore, affects both rotations the exact same way (PPS-wise).

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

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Read the post above where I have a massive explanation as to why you need to consider Foul and non-Foul rotations.
We don't have a rotation. We have a priority queue. Which is what I said in the "4.0 BLM numbers" thread.
The tl;dr is:
Foul up for UI? Go 3.X
No Foul for UI? Go 4.0 (align Triple with this, it's possible)

EDIT: There's actually a third possibility, since we're discussing this. It's do 4.0 until the Foul clock gets to a point where you'd get 2x Fouls in your UI cycle. Since you going four spells in UI is hella risky, you can only do three- 2xFoul > T3 > 3.X rotation. I didn't consider this because it's very easy to "upset" the Foul clock with mechanics and end up needing to Foul on the AF cycle, or just get a lot of unexpected procs and having to cut a F4 for Foul and other such nonsense. It's best, in my experience, to do what I said in that wall of text.

sometimes you hit 0 mp after f4, does that happen the same amount in 3.0 and 4.0 rotas? there foul has a slight advantage..

besides ofc always being able to cast it after B3 or transpose when waiting for a mp Tick,...

meaning we might end up holding on to foul, when we see high mp before casting the last fire 4 of a rota, better hold it "for the next rota", incase we have less mp next time, as a filler??

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I got this on Reddit too... there's something about the Foul placement in the rotation (especially the 3.X one) that people forget.

Where you cast Foul has huge implications on your overall pps (and, by consequence, dps) of your overall rotation.

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Okay but you will always cast foul in UI whatever you're doing 3.x or 4.0 rotation yes? Just because its available doesn't mean you have to cast it straight away, you have literally 30 seconds to cast it before it goes to waste so you just delay it for your next UI cycle whatever you're doing 3.x or 4.0 rotation. The pps is exactly the same in both rotations, it doesn't magically increase because you cast it as soon as it becomes available. That said, what you said above about using 4.0 if its not available, and 3.x if it is makes some kind of sense, would have to test those numbers, but i doubt it will change much since it would still be a pps loss if you then encounter movement when utilizing that 4.0 rotation eliminating any pps gain you just gained in the UI phase.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

sometimes you hit 0 mp after f4, does that happen the same amount in 3.0 and 4.0 rotas? there foul has a slight advantage..

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Won't happen in 3.x rotation because you know you can only get a maximum of 5xF4 casts off, you simply won't have enough mp to cast a 6th so it cannot happen. But it really depends on if you go out of UI and back to AF without full mp, it's just something you'll have to learn to account for, quickly check your mp before you start that last F4 cast and if you can see you won't have enough mp to cast B3 afterwards then don't cast that extra F4.

So I was crunching some AoE numbers and this is what I got. Posted it on the "Something interesting..." thread and thought I'd throw it here too.

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2: T4 B4 F3 F4 F4 Flare Flare
3-5: T4 B4 F3 Flare Flare
6-8: T4 B4 F3 F2 F2 Flare Flare
9+: T4 F3 F2 F2 Flare

The more SS you have, the more T4 B4 F3 F2 F2 Flare Flare will probably creep into other areas, because of T4 clipping.

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Please someone tell me I'm wrong.