The Monk Temple

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Originally Posted by Grembo

1. I want to ask about general movement when moving between the targets flank and behind, I was looking at my rotation on the training dummies and noticed i'm moving out of auto attack range pretty much constantly when using the w, a, s and d keys for movement.

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That makes no sense. Are you not using your mouse to turn while strafing?

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2. That damn DL subligar! I hate it :( Are the Peltast Breeches a good enough alternative? I'm pretty much full DL apart from the legs..

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I love the DL pants.

Yeah, not using Bootshine is a net DPS loss in theory, but a minimal one even then. High crit rating minimizes this further.

Also, obviously it wouldn't be prudent to go well out of your way to stack anything with no regard for other stats - other stats gain in value the more you stack any one of them. I simply suggest a regular bias towards crit rate and determination in general.

I personally exercise this in my selection between melee and allagan gear for example, and I still have quite a high amount of skill speed just because it comes naturally due to itemization.

One reason for my suggestion of forgoing the use of Bootshine or True Strike is the fact that they provide minimal increases to DPS at a sizable risk, particularly for players new to the job. The fact is MNK can operate at ~95% or so optimal DPS by just sticking to the flank rotation. I feel like this is a good place for MNKs in general to start at and practice getting muscle memory down for the various DoTs, buffs and off-GCD skills. Once they are able to execute those basics well, they can begin working on optimizing via Bootshine and even True Strike if they so wish.

It's just that, there are so many MNKs out there that underperform - more than most other jobs I'd say - and my hypothesis is that they're trying too hard and failing at it. Gotta start with the basics first.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Yep. You'll do more DPS if you don't hyper-stack crit, pick up some DTR, and use Bootshine as it was intended to be used.

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Easy, what would you consider ideal numbers for cri, det and SS (assuming you already have max accuracy)?

Monks don't generally have any stat to spike or heavily optimize for unless you straight up don't use Bootshine, in which case every point of CRT is a bit better than equivalent amounts of the other 2.

Generally I skew my gear slightly away from SS due to TP (doesn't everyone? lulz). Ironically, if you have 100% Bootshine 'uptime' (e.g. you diminish the value of CRT), then SS sort of becomes the strongest theoretical stat from an item budget standpoint, until you run out of TP.

However, in practice I'd prefer to choose to increase DPS and run out of TP by using Fracture, rather than always run out of TP by using SS. I haven't done any in-depth analysis between the two approaches, though.


Aside from the SS thing, I'm also on the #believe train for DTR's future Becoming (TM) to god-stat status.

Separately, as a practical matter, even if you use Bootshine it's not like you get 100% Bootshine 'uptime'. A lot of times you default back to DK anyways for various reasons. So the net result is that it makes sense to skew slightly for CRT, regardless of other factors.


... that's the long answer. TLDR: I don't have specific stat targets. More is better, but I choose for more CRT/DTR over more SS, because Monks have multiple options to trade more TP for damage.

^ Pretty much all of this. Well put.

Thanks guys this was a lot of help. Its level 46 now and soon ill be dragging it through wp where I can get some practice.

Hey guys, so i am very close to be hitting 50 and i am stoke! I will soon level my lancer to 34 and my MRD to 8 to get my cross skills. When I do what will my final skills rotation? And what stats/ materia should i be focusing on? Is this guide a good one to follow?

http://www.ffxivguild.com/ff14-arr-p...ation-materia/

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Originally Posted by SynCity

Hey guys, so i am very close to be hitting 50 and i am stoke! I will soon level my lancer to 34 and my MRD to 8 to get my cross skills. When I do what will my final skills rotation? And what stats/ materia should i be focusing on? Is this guide a good one to follow?

http://www.ffxivguild.com/ff14-arr-p...ation-materia/

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Reading the last 10-20 posts would have been quite helpful :)

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1562264

Read from that point on, and feel free to ask any further questions.

Hmmm, does any other Monk possess an Allagan Cuirass of Striking?

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Hmmm, does any other Monk possess an Allagan Cuirass of Striking?

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I've seen a couple on Excalibur.

Seen one on Ragnarok as well.

Question Last week I finished buying relic for MNK got 4 pieces head/feet/ring/neck everything else I want is allagan, Should I get the body piece? I will lose out on 18 crit but allagan body just seems like a long shot to get from T5.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

Question Last week I finished buying relic for MNK got 4 pieces head/feet/ring/neck everything else I want is allagan, Should I get the body piece? I will lose out on 18 crit but allagan body just seems like a long shot to get from T5.

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Thanks for asking this. I have the same question. I am certain to buy the same items you have, but i'm wondering if the +9 in strength from the chest piece is worth the loss of Crit. Also should I buy the chest first, or go in some other order?

For those looking for BiS:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...r-A-Discussion

you can change the solver as you will if you need to for different situations such as using an allagan weapon or the relic+1 or using food buffs or different weights.

Also What was the purpose of having skill speed 490+? Cause I see people talking about Twin Snake buff and if you don't have 490+ SS then you will lose it when using True Strike. I had over 500 SS and have now changed gear around I think I'm sitting at 457 w/o food and I think some food I use gives me a lil bit.

But when I had over 500 SS I was burning through TP to fast in coils. Anyways with 468 SS I'm not losing Twin Snake buff, I have 1-2sec left when I hit the button.

Edit Also I think I'm still able to put in Dots and not lose TS buff. I'll have to go check it out but I'm pretty sure its in.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

Also What was the purpose of having skill speed 490+? Cause I see people talking about Twin Snake buff and if you don't have 490+ SS then you will lose it when using True Strike. I had over 500 SS and have now changed gear around I think I'm sitting at 457 w/o food and I think some food I use gives me a lil bit.

But when I had over 500 SS I was burning through TP to fast in coils. Anyways with 468 SS I'm not losing Twin Snake buff, I have 1-2sec left when I hit the button.

Edit Also I think I'm still able to put in Dots and not lose TS buff. I'll have to go check it out but I'm pretty sure its in.

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492(?) Skill Speed gets you to an even 2.0s GCD, which people believed they needed ( theoretically) to be able to use True Strike and maintain the Twin Snakes buff.

Not only is it unnecessary to have a perfect 2.0s GCD to maintain Twin Snakes buff while using True Strike, it is generally unnecessarily risky to use True Strikes in an actual raid environment due to risk of losing the Twin Snakes buff due to mechanics, and the fact that you will be skipping out on it anyway every time you want to refresh ToD/Fracture or use Impulse Drive.

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Not only is it unnecessary to have a perfect 2.0s GCD to maintain Twin Snakes buff while using True Strike, it is generally unnecessarily risky to use True Strikes in an actual raid environment due to risk of losing GL due to mechanics, and the fact that you will be skipping out on it anyway every time you want to refresh ToD/Fracture or use Impulse Drive.

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There is no change in risk to GL based on using True Strike or not.

The rest is accurate though. You only need about 441 SS to maintain Twin, plus or minus depending on your lagginess. The 491 number is basically ignorant of the game's mechanics.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

There is no change in risk to GL based on using True Strike or not.

The rest is accurate though. You only need about 441 SS to maintain Twin, plus or minus depending on your lagginess. The 491 number is basically ignorant of the game's mechanics.

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Bah I meant Twin Snakes buff not GL >_>

editing... good catch lol

Since all the monks I know complain about TP usage, it is a fairly significant (you gain almost a minute more of full boss uptime) TP efficiency increase to always swap out True/Twin.

Unless you know a disconnect is coming and you need Twin for a Demo/Snap coming up, I would say always alternate, even if it means the damage falling off. You lose roughly 1.4% dps (less than that actually, but i'm lazy) and gain quite a bit of efficiency.

You gain 3% absolute efficiency, but keep in mind TP drain is coming off of margins, so it is closer to something like 20-30% slower TP drain. It makes a huge difference, esp with the amount of relative SS monks have with GL3.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Since all the monks I know complain about TP usage, it is a fairly significant (you gain almost a minute more of full boss uptime) TP efficiency increase to always swap out True/Twin.

Unless you know a disconnect is coming and you need Twin for a Demo/Snap coming up, I would say always alternate, even if it means the damage falling off. You lose roughly 1.4% dps (less than that actually, but i'm lazy) and gain quite a bit of efficiency.

You gain 3% absolute efficiency, but keep in mind TP drain is coming off of margins, so it is closer to something like 20-30% slower TP drain. It makes a huge difference, esp with the amount of relative SS monks have with GL3.

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Is the dps loss you stated - 1.4% - regarding only situations where you're not putting up your dots?

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Is the dps loss you stated - 1.4% - regarding only situations where you're not putting up your dots?

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If you put up dots the dps loss is even lower, you will never lose Twin for a coeurl move (unless you had to disconnect, in which case you should twin for that), so the only attack you will usually be in danger of losing twin for is the 2nd twin (3rd Raptor attack).

A loss of ~14 pp is worth it for the TP efficiency gain in my opinion, but it will depend on the fight and your comp of course.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

If you put up dots the dps loss is even lower, you will never lose Twin for a coeurl move (unless you had to disconnect, in which case you should twin for that), so the only attack you will usually be in danger of losing twin for is the 2nd twin (3rd Raptor attack).

A loss of ~14 pp is worth it for the TP efficiency gain in my opinion, but it will depend on the fight and your comp of course.

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What I meant is that fracture/ToD should make you lose twin on the next dragon kick. I guess you wouldn't be using fracture though when you're going for TP efficiency.
Is ToD not enough to lose the buff on the next dragon? I'd believe that, just wondering.

Whenever I've tried to include True Strike in the rotation, it was always the most intuitive to couple it with Bootshine usage.

Oh, I see what you're getting at!

Yes, if you have fillered in a DoT then don't use True.

Using True with Bootshine is actually a really good idea, it gets you into your rotation easier and its easier to remember.

I would not use Fracture unless during BfB or IR, as it is still inefficient compared to your combo.

Unless you don't have TP problems.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Oh, I see what you're getting at!

Yes, if you have fillered in a DoT then don't use True.

Using True with Bootshine is actually a really good idea, it gets you into your rotation easier and its easier to remember.

I would not use Fracture unless during BfB or IR, as it is still inefficient compared to your combo.

Unless you don't have TP problems.

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I only have TP problems on Turn 4 when we don't have two BLMs or Turn 5 (definitely don't use it there).
Turn 1 - my tp gets low using fracture but it dies before I get to a point where I have to stop using my abilities.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Since all the monks I know complain about TP usage, it is a fairly significant (you gain almost a minute more of full boss uptime) TP efficiency increase to always swap out True/Twin.

Unless you know a disconnect is coming and you need Twin for a Demo/Snap coming up, I would say always alternate, even if it means the damage falling off. You lose roughly 1.4% dps (less than that actually, but i'm lazy) and gain quite a bit of efficiency.

You gain 3% absolute efficiency, but keep in mind TP drain is coming off of margins, so it is closer to something like 20-30% slower TP drain. It makes a huge difference, esp with the amount of relative SS monks have with GL3.

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I don't have TP issues in any instance I can recall that isn't resolved by cutting ID and Fracture from my rotation. So yea, I don't see myself risking the loss of a +10% damage buff, even briefly, for further Tp efficiency. If I ever come across a situation where even after dropping ID, Fracture and ToD I still have TP issues, then I will work True Strike into my rotation.

My overall point is, a lot of MNKs underperform when it is in fact quite simple to put out solid DPS on MNK by just sticking to the flank bread and butter combo. So many MNKs take theorycrafted advice, try to pull off a rather complex rotation sequence that isn't necessarily set in stone, since a lot of it has to be played by ear during content, and end up losing GL, Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick, etc and resulting in worse DPS than if they had just used the 3 main skills back to back.

People need to take it one step at a time and realize that theorycrafting is a means to obtain better performance in content, not a universal recipe.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I don't have TP issues in any instance I can recall that isn't resolved by cutting ID and Fracture from my rotation. So yea, I don't see myself risking the loss of a +10% damage buff, even briefly, for further Tp efficiency.

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Humm, that isn't really the full picture. Keep in mind that the "further TP efficiency" allows you to inject additional Fractures.

That aside, I just ran the exact option in my model and the damage result was actually the same even if the TW buff drops for the following TW (when you swap in TR).

Simply put, dropping the TW buff off of TW is a loss of 14p on the attack. Replacing the middle TW with TR is a gain of 10p. The remaining 4p is gained if you get the +5% crit (successfeal rear position). It actually averages out pretty well. Net DPS of 0 with a gain in TP efficiency.

Edit: More detail:

(1) Assume a base 20% chance to crit (13-ish + average IR)
(2) TW-buffed TW is 140 * (1 + .5*20%) * 1.1 = 169.4
(3) TW-buffed TR is 150 * (1 + .5*25%) * 1.1 = 185.6
(4) Sad TW is 140 * (1 + 1.1) = 154
(5) Consistent TW-only is 169.4 * 2 = 338.8
(6) TR + sad TW = 185.6+154 = 339.6

GG.

Beyond that, you save what, 10 TP every 12s?

A normal MNK rotation (with TR) costs 56 P/GCD. FR costs 80P/GCD. That's a delta of 24. So every 12s*24/10 = 29 seconds you can use an extra Fracture using the TP you saved.

FR is a potency gain of 355/291-1 = 22% for a 1 GCD every 29 seconds. 29s is 13.9 GCDs, so 22%/13.9 = 1.6% rotational damage gained by switching to True Strike -- not directly from TR, but by saving more TP to be used on FR, even when you cause a drop of the TW buff on the next TW.

Sidenote: 355 and 291 are potency adjusted for crit, blunt resist debuff, FoF, GL3, etc.


TLDR: Using True Strike is DPS neutral and a TP gain even if you lose the Twin buff on the following Twin, assuming you get the successful rear positional. Even if you don't get the rear positional, it is a DPS gain if you use the extra TP to provide more Fractures.

Not to switch topics too much, but I've been playing with logrep.
Both logrep and ffxivapp still give me a dps loss with dots. Anyone else experiencing this? I thought the dot simulation was more accurate now.
Note: the 'loss' is not nearly as big as it used to be.

How are you observing the "loss" with DOTs? Are you just comparing an X-minute parse without using DOTs to one while using DOTs?

Due to RNG with crits in general, that's not an effective way of assessing how well the parser is picking up DOTs, unless the difference you're observing is major.

I would suggest taking both detailed parses with %crit for each ability, de-factoring the crit to isolate their base damages, and re-applying a standard crit% rate to re-create the parse equally between both. Compare those to observe what your results are between "DoTs" and "no DoTs".

Or are you eyeballing the DOT tick for individual DOTs and checking what the parser is recording them as?

That result should be pretty accurate for regular damage (but prone to RNG crits).

Edit:

Also, try ACT!

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

How are you observing the "loss" with DOTs? Are you just comparing an X-minute parse without using DOTs to one while using DOTs?

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Yep that's all I did. Just very basic testing, which is why I was wondering if any of you knew that it was accurate regardless.
Does it properly scale the dots with temporary buffs? I can always coincide them with either IR or BfB and sometimes both.
I'll actually try testing it today with the temp buffs.

One of the eyebrow raisers was getting an 8% crit on a parse (though that never happens in a real fight), while all the abilities were closer to 20% except the dots. That happened in ffxivapp, which made me try out logrep.
Also the overall dot damage just seemed so low overall. It was higher in logrep though.

I'll try what you said and maybe ACT.

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Does it properly scale the dots with temporary buffs? I can always coincide them with either IR or BfB and sometimes both.

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The specifics of DOT modeling is parser-specific. Each parser is going to end up doing it in different ways. All I know is that the ACT plugin author uses the parse data for other attacks to model the DOT damage, and uses a crit% based on the other attacks. Finally, he tracks the data with and without buffs like BFB/Raging Strikes to model the DOT damage more accurately (e.g. apply RS to the DOT). There was a thread on Reddit where he was responding to questions and providing more detail. I don't know how IR was handled. In general it should at least be reflected in the estimated crit% applied to the DOT model based on other attacks. The result should be fairly close to accurate.

The only fundamental errors IIRC with ACT's DOT modeling were: (1) it uses the debuff timer for DOT ticks, not server timing (small difference), and (2) no Contagion (for SMN), although he was working on it.

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One of the eyebrow raisers was getting an 8% crit on a parse (though that never happens in a real fight)

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There was a troll with the DRG threads who was posting his ultimate rotation backed by a parse where he RNG'd a 40-100% crit rate on all the major attacks (44% on autoattacks!!). Lols.

I think I'm just bitter that my dummy dps is usually 280-285 while I don't think there's anything wrong with my rotation.

I've realized though that my dps is still rising past the 5 min mark (when I usually run out of TP, even w/o fracture). If I cut the parse at 4 mins, I'm down to like 275 overall.

The realtime dps thing for logrep puts me over 300 after 3 minutes, so I'm thinking maybe I need to bring a bard friend for a proper parse.

Since there's no WoL for this game, I want to make sure I'm hitting the numbers I should be. There's not really a lot of dps information based on the fights, just dummies.

For reference, I usually get 240-245dps on turn 1, not sure about turn 2 and 275 dps on turn 4.
220 or so dps on Titan.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

There was a troll with the DRG threads who was posting his ultimate rotation backed by a parse where he RNG'd a 40-100% crit rate on all the major attacks (44% on autoattacks!!). Lols.

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Was it with ffxivapp? I think it's been undergoing some changes ever since they added the history tab. Some of its numbers have been ridiculous. I've especially been seeing myself do like a super low dps figure like 60 (or sometimes even single digits!), while the damage done is more than someone who's doing more appropriate dps like in the 200's. Only been happening recently.

Also, he might not have set the intervals so that parse was for like 3 moves (or just mostly under IR, lol). The default is very short and if you pick "damage only" as the refresh, you might change to a new parse while buffing yourself.

Heh, no, it was a full multi-minute parse. He just hid the %crit column, but you could derive the crit rate because it still displayed the "normal damage" and "critical damage" columns.

It was pretty comical. I wish I had a 100% crit rate on my Full Thrusts. 1100 damage every couple of GCDs? Yesplz.

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

Default should be 10 seconds; damage only. But you can configure. For the Crit Rates (removed the "used" tracking for DoT's) which means Crit% is back to normal.

For DPS its: Total Damage Done (everything) / Time you first appeared. That's the global basic info; but each action/mob/player/whatever has it's own separate one. ;)

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Hmm, mine was set to 2 seconds when I checked but changed it to 10 myself. I don't think I changed it before cause I only found the tab when I wanted to increase the time.
It was set to 2000, which I assume is 2 seconds.
The DPS issue I got was demonstrably wrong unless I was dpsing from like 10 mins with only auto-attacking before the rest of my raid got there. I'm not sure why, but the dps in the basic or the advanced was just unreliable since the numbers would sometimes be completely off recently (like in the single digits).

The damage done would still be fine relatively though.
Glad the crit is back to normal also.

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

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Thanks for the info.
This wasn't the case though. I was checking in between trash pulls and it happened on titan and ADS as well (both where I didn't die, of course). I understand DPS is affected by those things (for example, the limit break) but these were very simple parses where the damage done did not match the dps for the time of the event.
This was the case under party damage as well in advanced. I didn't check the monster damage taken to confirm though.
Maybe it's fixed now, but these were definitely not simple cases of, say, inactivity.

If I happen to see it again, I'll save the log and post it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't monk the worst possible class to LB?

IIRC GL3 is lost if you LB (2 or higher, sometimes even on 1), even if I save a coeurl form just for LB.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't monk the worst possible class to LB?

IIRC GL3 is lost if you LB (2 or higher, sometimes even on 1), even if I save a coeurl form just for LB.

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While monk might be the worst class to use LB3 most setups go with just 1 melee, if that happens to be a monk it's not like there's another choice, it's still better than a BLM LB when it comes to single target damage.
I usually safe it to finish the job though so I don't just lose my stacks...

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't monk the worst possible class to LB?

IIRC GL3 is lost if you LB (2 or higher, sometimes even on 1), even if I save a coeurl form just for LB.

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Cast time for LB3 is 4.5 seconds and the animation itself is fairly lengthy - I'm not sure at what speed skill you need to be able to LB3 without dropping GL.
That said - the damage on melee limit break is definitely worth dropping GL3, try to make sure you have perfect balance up - it's very rare to be in a party with another DRG but you'll want him to use it in that case.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't monk the worst possible class to LB?

IIRC GL3 is lost if you LB (2 or higher, sometimes even on 1), even if I save a coeurl form just for LB.

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Yep. Hopefully you can coincide it with a phase change or with PB being up.
I think it's possible to keep GL3 if the timing is just right.
Still probably the worst class, but you'd only really compare to dragoons since single target is its own niche.

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Originally Posted by Icehunter

I'm not sure though what to catch on this; as an example on a training dummy:
Took me 199 seconds to run out of TP

http://i.imgur.com/WjfVCNZ.jpg

DPS was off by .5 damage if you divide the totals :(

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These were isolated cases and I never got it on a dummy (or while not in a party for that matter).
It may be something I'm missing and probably just had to do with me not finding the interval tab sooner. I'm not sure it happened after I switched it to 10 seconds and put the reset to Any.
I'll let you know if it ever happens again.

Outside of those cases, the damage done did usually match the dps.

ADS2 and Titan are both multi-part fights so FF14app may be accumulating the damage / DPS in unexpected ways.

You may have to increase whatever "out of combat interval" to like 10-15 seconds to ensure that Titan and Titan's Heart don't split the fight or DPS windows up into separate fights.