*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

They as a people no longer existed. Changed or not, they did not exist in the form they once did. The Ancients no longer existed after Venat's actions, and now that we have killed the last three Unsundered they never will again.

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Wiping out a people is genocide. Omnicide is all the people.

Seriously, have we gone over this topic so much that the term genocide has lost its edge?

Most of the Ascians were sundered members of the former Convocation, set adrift to different shards. They clearly weren't killed by it, nor did they lose their memories. They even seem to have made some sort of a pact together after the sundering based on the inscriptions on their soul crystals.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Most of the Ascians were sundered members of the former Convocation, set adrift to different shards. They clearly weren't killed by it, nor did they lose their memories. They even seem to have made some sort of a pact together after the sundering based on the inscriptions on their soul crystals.

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Correct me if im wrong, but they did lose their memories, its just that one of the unsundered used their memory crystals to help them remember.The soul crystals if im not mistaken are from before the sundering.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except we do know this. We’re told this in the short story. Even the “tempered” convocation was split on the idea of the sacrifices. They didn’t calm down about it until Elidibus ejected from Zodiark and they saw a soul could come out of Zodiark, so i’m not sure where you’re getting this from.

As for the idea that they would continue sacrificing and sacrificing….we’re told via Hythlodaeus that once the 3rd set was done they planned to resume their duties as stewards of the star, there is nothing indicating they would continue sacrificing. For all we know they could have put Zodiark into Pandaemonium afterwards or put him in the center of the star like Hydaelyn was.

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I strongly disagree. I think there's every possible indication that they would've kept going. We were shown that suffering was now inherent and unavoidable in their world, that they couldn't cope with it, and that they were too traumatized to resist the urge to undo it. We were told of (and shown directly in the Dead Ends and Ultima Thule in general) many different races that did that exact same thing and had the exact same problem and there's no reason to believe that the Ancients would've been any more responsible. There's no reason to assume that Hythlodaeus' take on what they would've done is more accurate just because he has a pretty face and kissable lips.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I strongly disagree. I think there's every possible indication that they would've kept going. We were shown that suffering was now inherent and unavoidable in their world, that they couldn't cope with it, and that they were too traumatized to resist the urge to undo it. We were told of (and shown directly in the Dead Ends and Ultima Thule in general) many different races that did that exact same thing and had the exact same problem and there's no reason to believe that the Ancients would've been any more responsible. There's no reason to assume that Hythlodaeus' take on what they would've done is more accurate just because he has a pretty face and kissable lips.

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I didnt even mention the latter comment...appearance has very little to do with anything. They suffered in elpis, we see this via sidequests but they did overcome it.They could cope with it, as they even had special funeral rites to help them cope with getting rid of creations. The only thing you can argue they didnt cope with was the final days deaths and really why should they? It was something horrific and out of their control. Why wouldnt you want to undo the mess it caused? Just because we saw a few races succumb to it doesnt mean the ancients would have, by that logic we can say the sundered are the same situation so they should die off as well. Theres no reason to assume hythlodaeus' take is incorrect just because of a few races we saw who werent really much like the ancients. It's strange to me how the constant theme in this game has been hope, and not giving up but so many people are quick to write off the ancients as "oh, they wouldve kept going." With very little to actually support this. The ancients lived for thousands of years without problems. This isnt any different than ironworks not resisting the urge to undo the calamity and so they messed with time.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Correct me if im wrong, but they did lose their memories, its just that one of the unsundered used their memory crystals to help them remember. The soul crystals if im not mistaken are from before the sundering.

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Hm. The Convocation's quotes sound like they were about the Final Days, but Azem's inscription is definitely post-sundering. 'Though the world be sundered and our souls set adrift, where you walk, my dearest friend, fate shall surely follow.' Based off of 'Ere Our Curtain Falls', it sounded like their memories were corrupted by body hopping (or in Elidibus' case, being a primal), which was why even the unsundered were having problems remembering themselves.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I didnt even mention the latter comment...appearance has very little to do with anything.

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Nah, I was just telling you why I myself always listened to Hythlodaeus.

Also, it wasn't really a "few" races, it was every other race we saw in the cosmos. All of them unmade themselves, either on their own or with a little push from Meteion.

Just from that cutscene alone, "Deliver unto us the lives we once had. Deliver unto us the days of old."

Not to mention, they were willing to sacrifice themselves and everyone else on Etherys just to bring back who they initially sacrificed, which was horrid enough on its own. If it wasn't for the potential third set of sacrifices, I'd probably have agreed with you, but the fact that it was even a debate showed us that they did go off the deep end.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Nah, I was just telling you why I myself always listened to Hythlodaeus.

Also, it wasn't really a "few" races, it was every other race we saw in the cosmos. All of them unmade themselves, either on their own or with a little push from Meteion.

Just from that cutscene alone, "Deliver unto us the lives we once had. Deliver unto us the days of old."

Not to mention, they were willing to sacrifice themselves and everyone else on Etherys just to bring back who they initially sacrificed, which was horrid enough on its own. If it wasn't for the potential third set of sacrifices, I'd probably have agreed with you, but the fact that it was even a debate showed us that they did go off the deep end.

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How is that showing they went off the deep end. Again, people seem to forget Ironworks was willing to do the same thing. They were willing to sacrifice millions to bring us back. Where are you getting the sacrifice everyone on Etheirys? If you’re talking about the rejoining that was not only to bring back those lost, but to rejoin the worlds as well and make the world whole and stable again.We didnt see every race that fell to ruin di dwe? Only a select few in the grand scheme of things. For all we know the unknown ones couldve all been fine until Meteion came along.Regardless though, theres nothing at all pointing to them continuing sacrifices after the 3rd set. For all we know, with the threat gone they could have found ways to supplement zodiark with aether that didnt require death.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hm. The Convocation's quotes sound like they were about the Final Days, but Azem's inscription is definitely post-sundering. 'Though the world be sundered and our souls set adrift, where you walk, my dearest friend, fate shall surely follow.' Based off of 'Ere Our Curtain Falls', it sounded like their memories were corrupted by body hopping (or in Elidibus' case, being a primal), which was why even the unsundered were having problems remembering themselves.

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The french version of Hythlo's dialogue regarding the crystals:
Hythlodaeus : Ceux que vous appelez les Asciens originels en ont créé une pour chaque membre du Concile. Elles renferment des souvenirs liés à ces derniers.
= “Those that you called (Unsundered) original Ascians created one for each member of the Council. They contain memories related to them.”

Hythlodaeus : Hé hé, je te vois venir. Ce ne sont pas des concepts, tout au plus des fragments. Toutefois, elles peuvent se révéler utiles pour raviver la mémoire d'un des Quatorze dont l'âme s'est morcelée.
= “He he, I see you coming around. They are not concepts, but fragments at most. However, they can be useful in reviving the memory of one of the Fourteen whose soul is fragmented.”

English version as well:
High in the heavens, those stars shine their guiding light down upon the lives below. Fitting symbols for the Convocation of Fourteen, would you not agree?

As you will have gathered, each crystal bears an account of the life of a member of the Convocation as remembered by the unsundered.

Lest you worry, they aren't concepts; they are far too incomplete to be so. But they suffice for imbuing memories within sundered souls, that they might be restored to their office.

Weren't they willing to sacrifice all non-Amaurotine races just to bring back their own? That was pretty much them undoing most of the fixing they did in the second sacrifice just because they couldn't cope with the loss of their people.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Weren't they willing to sacrifice all non-Amaurotine races just to bring back their own? That was pretty much them undoing most of the fixing they did in the second sacrifice just because they couldn't cope with the loss of their people.

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No. It is explicitly stated to be only a portion of the new life.

Isn't 'les Asciens originels' merely a reference to the original Convocation members who first held the soul crystals? We know that Amon was appointed as Hermes' successor by Emet during the time of Allag, which is why Amon inherited Hermes' memories.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Nobody can blame Spiggy-Selch, just like nobody can blame you, Rannie-brea. Sorry, your character's face reminds me of Lahabrea-possessed Thancred too much.

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This is Thancred =P

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Isn't 'les Asciens originels' merely a reference to the original Convocation members who first held the soul crystals? We know that Amon was appointed as Hermes' successor by Emet during the time of Allag, which is why Amon inherited Hermes' memories.

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Trying not to reach my post limit today but since theres some confusion.

"When Elidibus was still Elidibus and Lahabrea still Lahabrea, we had collected all of our memories of the Fourteen and committed them to crystal, that those who would take our seats one day might learn. Elidibus would, I was sure, find much within to help him remember─yet he shook his head."

« Elidibus... Tu es sûr que tu ne veux pas jeter un œil à ton cristal ? »

“Elidibus… Are you sure you don’t want to take a look at your crystal?”

À l'époque où Lahabrea et lui étaient encore vierges de toute aliénation, les souvenirs que nous avions les uns des autres au sein du Concile étaient consignés dans des cristaux, utiles entre autres à l'éducation des transmigrés. Elidibus aurait pu à tout moment se rafraîchir la mémoire en examinant le sien, mais il ne l'avait jamais fait.

At the time when Lahabrea and he were still new to all this alienation, the memories we had of each other in the Council were recorded in crystals, useful among other things for the education of (transmigrates). Elidibus could have refreshed his memory at any time by examining his, but he never had.

The English and French passages for 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' are similar enough. Emet is referring to a time when the Convocation still had their memories intact. Both Lahabrea and Elidibus progressively lost their sense of self for different reasons. Lahabrea because his leaps from vessel to vessel left him more and more broken, and Elidibus because he merged himself with Zodiark.

It's worth remembering that the unsundered had no memories of Meteion when they were alive, and yet Amon was able to remember her. This includes moments on Elpis that none of the unsundered were present to witness. 'It was only when I was granted the seat - and memories - of Fandaniel that I knew these visions to be true.'

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The English and French passages for 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' are similar enough. Emet is referring to a time when the Convocation still had their memories intact. Both Lahabrea and Elidibus progressively lost their sense of self for different reasons. Lahabrea because his leaps from vessel to vessel left him more and more broken, and Elidibus because he merged himself with Zodiark.

It's worth remembering that the unsundered had no memories of Meteion when they were alive, and yet Amon was able to remember her. This includes moments on Elpis that none of the unsundered were present to witness. 'It was only when I was granted the seat - and memories - of Fandaniel that I knew these visions to be true.'

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my fan theory that if we had just let Hesperos smooch Lahabrea, none of this would have happened.

LET HOT DRACULA KISS LAHABREA!!!

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Again, your quotes don't demonstrate a 'clear distinction' on the Amaurotians' sacrifices. The final line talks about handing over the planet to the 'new lives' living on the 'new world'. Not really relevant to your claim at all, although people have humorously pointed out that the Ancients obviously weren't planning on handing over the new world to the dolphins. I shouldn't have to keep fact checking you.

I also went back and had a look at that post you keep going on about. I didn't make any claims about what your personal views were. Go back and actually read it. You're not the only person on these forums.

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You're not "fact checking", you're being strangely hostile and condescending over a video game story with an argument that relies upon taking lines out of context. The final section of that quote is Hythlodaeus saying "But there are those who did not agree [with the sacrifices referenced in the previous line], and wanted to hand over the new world to the new lives [as a contrast to the opposing goal that implicitly establishes their nature]." I could just as easily argue that the first 2 sacrifices consisted of random races and not just the Ancients, since the first line only uses the word "people" and, removed from all else, suggests it may very well have been universal.

And if you didn't think I wanted Emet to win, why did you spend a paragraph telling me, specifically, that I could let him kill me and then quit the game if I wanted?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Yeah. That's why I said that he'd do the exact same thing again if given a second chance, and we'd still be forced to kill him to stop him. You always have the option to agree with him, you know. Just get up to the end of Shadowbringers, die to Hades, and then close down the game for good. Congrats, you're done. You've experienced Emet's plan.

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I'm not sure how else you meant me to interpret this.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

You're told in Amaurot that they intend to sacrifice the "new life" specifically, not any members of their species or pre-existing creatures.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

That when the time was ripe, and the world bountiful with life, they would sacrifice a portion of it to Zodiark...
Such that he might revive those whose aether he had consumed for power, and everyone would once again oversee the world together.
But there were those who did not agree. They believed that it was time for the sacrifices to come to an end, and for them to hand the new world over to the new lives living upon it.

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I've put your claim and the text side by side several times now. Your conclusion cannot be inferred directly from this text. You can come up with your own set of assumptions to try and support it, but they're exactly that - assumptions. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

I'm merely responding to your claims. Your assessment of my feelings is incorrect. We're better off stopping this discussion, though, because it's not treading any interesting new ground and your original post was just bait.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Correct me if im wrong, but they did lose their memories, its just that one of the unsundered used their memory crystals to help them remember.The soul crystals if im not mistaken are from before the sundering.

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The memory crystals were originally created by the unsundered after the sundering to commemorate the Convocation. However, this seems to have been retconned in EW to some extent.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I've put your claim and the text side by side several times now. Your conclusion cannot be inferred directly from this text. You can come up with your own set of assumptions to try and support it, but they're exactly that - assumptions. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

I'm merely responding to your claims. Your assessment of my feelings is incorrect. We're better off stopping this discussion, though, because it's not treading any interesting new ground and your original post was just bait.

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You're spent the last 2 pages defending a supposition that the sundered Ancients retained their memories without anything close to a decisive citation from the game, so even if you do feel that it is not implicit in the section I quoted that the goal to let the "new life inherit the world" opposed to the goal of "sacrificing life" equates to the new life specifically being sacrificed, you probably shouldn't be tearing people down for making assumptions. Or making statements like this:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The reason why I asked for a citation was because I knew that it wasn't supported by the in-game text. You knew this as well. The reason why the lore discussion in these forums gets progressively more distorted with each retelling is because people like sprinkling in partial truths on their fiction.

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If you go into a story discussion forum with an attitude that everyone who walked away with a different impression of the facts is deliberately baiting through misrepresentation of the story, you're going to get back exactly what you put in. Which is to say, not much.

Why not just farm the aether from the 13th reflection and use that to feed Zodiark enough to revive the lives of the dead? The Ancients can keep the 13th reflection to themselves after that.

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Originally Posted by Yellow

Why not just farm the aether from the 13th reflection and use that to feed Zodiark enough to revive the lives of the dead? The Ancients can keep the 13th reflection to themselves after that.

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The Thirteenth is already aether-starved, it's a big thing with the voidsent. So presumably the Thirteenth would be a pretty empty meal.

Also, the Ascians wanted everything back exactly how it was, which requires also fixing and rejoining the Thirteenth. It's not expendable to them.


And on the other subject: the soul crystals contained the unsundered's memories of the entire Convocation, which were used to awaken the sundered's full Ancient memories when they found them after a death. It was clearly not the only method, but Mitron's technique looked... pretty bad, so the crystals were reasonably the standard technique. We dumped them into the Crystal Tower with Elidibus, so they were effectively disposed of. The exception is Azem's crystal, which actually contained no memories, but rather a spell of Azem's making.

This hasn't been 'retconned' or anything, that is very directly how it worked, how it was stated in 5.3 and how it is treated in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

There's no reason to assume that Hythlodaeus' take on what they would've done is more accurate just because he has a pretty face and kissable lips.

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Or that Hythlodaeus' take on what they would've done was actually Hythlodaeus' take. The only time I can recall Hythlo mentioning the Convocation is in Amaurot, and that's not the actual Hythlodaeus.

It was clear in 5.3, yes, it was made less clear in EW. There was even a thread about it not that long ago.

The cutscene after the Mothercrystal trial particularly sticks out, though I want to say that wasn't the only time in EW it was implied the Azem crystal pre-dated the sundering. I'm curious what other languages say in that scene, because English seemed to muddy the waters.

The inscription on the Azem crystal was definitely written after the sundering. There are time travel shenanigans afoot involving uninscribed soul crystals, though, so keep an eye on this raid series.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

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And now we switch over to a new debate. And again, I don't mind, but it's just strange that you keep dropping bait for new arguments and then throw claims of 'hostility' when you're finally granted the battle for which your soul so yearns. At least Zenos didn't try to guilt trip me after fighting him. But go on, you have my last quoted evidence from Amon regarding his memories of Elpis and Meteion. Feel free to have a go at that if you like.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

The English script is slightly vague, since the translators opted the frame the lines around the life of the planet itself rather than actual creatures, but the Japanese script goes:



This draws a fairly clear distinction between the new life, which the Ancients want to cultivate and sacrifice and the followers of Hydaelyn wish to hand the world over to, and themselves. Unless you specifically meant the 'pre-existing creatures' part - it is vague if we're talking about just new members of older species which are now flourishing, or new ones outright.

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Thanks for providing this. I somehow managed to miss it. This does indeed seem a little more specific than the EN version:

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Thus did a further half of the remaining people offer up their lives to Zodiark, that he might cleanse the planet and seed new life on it.

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Compared to:

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Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish.

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You could argue the implication is there in the EN version since the point of such sacrifices is to power him, but given how the ancients used creations to "seed new life" on the star, I get the sense that he'd be doing just that (as opposed to humping the planet or something similar...) We saw from the fight where Amon was controlling him that he could realise concepts. If I had to guess what the idea was here, it was to revive the planet, restore its natural processes, seed creations on it which, meeting the right criteria, would qualify for appropriate souls from the star, and then when natural reproductive processes had help further expand and augment the quantity of that, offer up those beings to him in order to exchange it for the souls inside him. His astral aspect may even have served to stimulate the whole process. Granted, there's still some vagueness in it, but we won't get a much clearer account than this unless they choose to clarify it further...

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The memory crystals were originally created by the unsundered after the sundering to commemorate the Convocation. However, this seems to have been retconned in EW to some extent.

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See i was a bit confused by this overall because now we know in Pandaemonium there’s apparently someone’s memory crystal floating around and it seems to be from back then during Elpis,unless i’m just forgetting a piece of info lol

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

See i was a bit confused by this overall because now we know in Pandaemonium there’s apparently someone’s memory crystal floating around and it seems to be from back then during Elpis,unless i’m just forgetting a piece of info lol

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No, you're remembering correctly.
I never saw this as a problem though. The fact that the convocation's memory crystals were created after the sundering doesn't necessarily mean that memory crystals weren't a thing before.

I merely took the Pandaemonium one as an earlier model. Though we don't know details yet, so it might still get explained further.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The memory crystals were originally created by the unsundered after the sundering to commemorate the Convocation. However, this seems to have been retconned in EW to some extent.

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That is certainly the interpretation the texts support, i.e. that Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch created these with their memories of the Convocation members and that Emet-Selch secretly created an Azem one. I'd be hesitant to say it's been retconned, as opposed to being a damn good replica of the original; this explanation makes sense to me. The writing around it is slightly confusing, but I think the idea that Emet did his best job creating a replica of the original crystal is a reasonable assumption.

The way I see these crystals (the re-created ones) is that they act as memory stimulants, much like the starshowers do with the Echo. We have quite a bit of lore on memory aether thanks to Bozja and 5.2 (and smatterings in 5.1 and 5.4 but more to do with tempering):


Bozja:

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Mikoto: Perhaps I should start with a simple explanation, as I did before. Let us consider the composition of a person's aether, shall we? There is corporeal aether of the flesh, incorporeal aether of the soul, and the aetherial residue of an individual's memories.
Mikoto: Were one to be possessed of only corporeal aether, they would be but a walking corpse. Conversely, entities comprised of only incorporeal aether are referred to in layman's terms as ghosts. Of course, a ghost that possesses residual memories could likely recall its past and retain self-awareness.
Mikoto: Using a crystal focus, we can isolate the aetherial signature of memories, much in the same way the seers did. We can then delve into and explore specific memories conjured by the subject.
Mikoto: We must be careful of what we observe, however, for while the information stored in a person's memories can be quite comprehensive, it is not always true to fact. They can be distorted due to the passage of time, or even when first committed to the mind as a result of personal bias.
Mikoto: That is why it is important to mark the distinction between explicit and implicit memories.
Mikoto: Explicit memories are those consciously stored and recalled, while implicit memories are more passively accumulated by our subconscious.
Mikoto: When meeting someone for the first time, their appearance will be kept as part of our explicit memory, though this may fade with the passing of time. Should a great deal of time pass without meeting, however, such recollection can prove difficult.
Mikoto: Yet in that moment, your mind also takes record of everything experienced by your sensory nervous system.
Mikoto: Unfortunately, information called from explicit memory is quite sensitive to misrepresentations of events. After all, if an individual is actively choosing to recall an event, who is to say they will not make alterations to better suit their liking?
Mikoto: That is why we seek information from implicit memory, which is more likely to be preserved free of the bias of an individual's worldview.

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From which it is evident that it occupies its own type of aether, presumably bundled with soul aether. Transferring it apparently is a different story (crystallised blood being used as a conduit for that) but I think it's clear enough from the above that it is associated with incorporeal aether given that a ghost can possess it.

5.2: Elidibus (Echoes of a Fallen Star)

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Nay, I think not─though the stars I acknowledge mine. A convenient illusion apt to awaken what little is left of the power that once resided in your sundered souls.
That which you and yours call the Echo.
And an echo it is. Of a symphony. But a fraction of what men, in their completeness, once possessed.
Even those among you who tower over others in the gift have only the faintest trace of it.
But though sundered and forgotten, through death and mocking rebirth, it has persisted. A whisper of our past, burned into your very aether─along with the sight of our end.
Through the rekindling of memory, I have awoken the ability─just as Hydaelyn is wont to do when She has need of new minions.

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We can presume a somewhat similar principle operates for the Convocation crystals (or the Ascian Prime method Mitron used in 5.4), provided that the memories exist to awaken.

Reading through all that reminds me of a thing I'd been thinking about these past few days—which of the three attempted sacrifices Venat argued against in the infamous post-Elpis scene, as well as whether the scene was intended to be symbolic or literal. But specifically this part:

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Mikoto: We must be careful of what we observe, however, for while the information stored in a person's memories can be quite comprehensive, it is not always true to fact. They can be distorted due to the passage of time, or even when first committed to the mind as a result of personal bias.
Mikoto: That is why it is important to mark the distinction between explicit and implicit memories.

Mikoto: Explicit memories are those consciously stored and recalled, while implicit memories are more passively accumulated by our subconscious.
Mikoto: When meeting someone for the first time, their appearance will be kept as part of our explicit memory, though this may fade with the passing of time. Should a great deal of time pass without meeting, however, such recollection can prove difficult.

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I had already been musing over the idea, but I think this actually gives it some merit: The scene where Venat walks through the ruins of Amaurot, chews out the survivors for not being able to cope with their loss, then righteously sunders the world? That might actually be what Venat/Hydaelyn remembers happening. Whether that's because of Elidibus-style memory degradation or a Cid-style refusal to accept the truth, Venat may simply remember things happening in a way they truly did not.

But if that were the case, I imagine the story would have built on it instead of leaving it as a loose end. And I doubt they'll ever revisit it, given how hard they pushed 6.0 as the end of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Reading through all that reminds me of a thing I'd been thinking about these past few days—which of the three attempted sacrifices Venat argued against in the infamous post-Elpis scene, as well as whether the scene was intended to be symbolic or literal. But specifically this part:



I had already been musing over the idea, but I think this actually gives it some merit: The scene where Venat walks through the ruins of Amaurot, chews out the survivors for not being able to cope with their loss, then righteously sunders the world? That might actually be what Venat/Hydaelyn remembers happening. Whether that's because of Elidibus-style memory degradation or a Cid-style refusal to accept the truth, Venat may simply remember things happening in a way they truly did not.

But if that were the case, I imagine the story would have built on it instead of leaving it as a loose end. And I doubt they'll ever revisit it, given how hard they pushed 6.0 as the end of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc.

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Tbh, this is what i’ve been thinking too, partially because i’ve kind of tried to use it to remedy the absolute asspull that was the Elidibus memory degradation, so i’ve always figured how do we know the same didn’t happen to both of the hearts? How are we so sure that Venat’s recollection is truly accurate? The problem here is we have seen 2 biased sides, and not a neutral one. But seeing that it’s the end of the arc yeah, i don’t think we’ll ever know tbh, which is a bit tragic. For an expansion that was supposed to tie up all the loose ends there are many unanswered questions.

This talk of memory crystals reminds me of job crystals. The fact that the skills, abilities, and techniques of the job are saved to the stone, much like implicit memories. I wonder if there are job crystals out there that contain the actual skills of one of the Azems. Though I have a feeling if anything could be linked to Azem, it's probably the original Blue Mage job crystal, since using what your opponents use against them is a bit goofy/brilliant and seems like something an eccentric ancient Azem would have come up with.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Reading through all that reminds me of a thing I'd been thinking about these past few days—which of the three attempted sacrifices Venat argued against in the infamous post-Elpis scene, as well as whether the scene was intended to be symbolic or literal. But specifically this part:



I had already been musing over the idea, but I think this actually gives it some merit: The scene where Venat walks through the ruins of Amaurot, chews out the survivors for not being able to cope with their loss, then righteously sunders the world? That might actually be what Venat/Hydaelyn remembers happening. Whether that's because of Elidibus-style memory degradation or a Cid-style refusal to accept the truth, Venat may simply remember things happening in a way they truly did not.

But if that were the case, I imagine the story would have built on it instead of leaving it as a loose end. And I doubt they'll ever revisit it, given how hard they pushed 6.0 as the end of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc.

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The issue with this is it’s not clear that what we saw was Venats memories specifically. Remember, the scene we saw came about during our traversing of the rift, not from the echo or by reading a memory crystal, both of which would root the scene firmly in Venats memory. Instead, what we see is closer to the scene with Minfilia on the First and as such we can’t assume the source was Venat.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Memories, like the corners of my mind

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I think it has more to do with, "Let expanse contract, let eon become instant!" Part of traversing the space time rift whenever Future Ironworks Syrcus Tower is involved revolved around this space time compression.

So what that vision is, is a wibbly wobbly time compressed showcase of Venat's memory. And yes, it is Venat's memory. She was at the heart of the rift crystal with her back turned. (Compare this to all of the other crystals in both the WoL's first Rift crossing in SHB and then the Fandaniel crystal right before Venat's).

This keeps it murky, but I would assume that it's closer to Cid-style refusal so that she could push past the self trauma inherent in her actions. We will probably never know though, because that scene is murky by choice. Obfuscation by choice. By the writers.

Absolutely.

Venat's choice was not smart, it was emotional.

We know zodiark would allow them to survive and research dynamis for literally THOUSANDS OF YEARS, the moment they know what causes the final days is the moment the ancients could figure it out, after all we are talking about immortal beings with the power of literally creation. And with their very scientific focused society multiple solutions would present themselves in time.

It makes no sense that literally every single ancient lost 1000 intelligence and stopped caring about what caused the final days and started going desperate, especially after the VICTORY of stopping the final days, some like hermes were clearly emotional lost causes but many more would be interested to learn what caused the final days, Zodiark simply stopped it but even for historical research purposes people would want to know.
So even without time travel shenanigans an ancient scholar would try to figure out what happened, which would inevitably lead outside the planet and try to find energies that are causing this.

For good or ill the devs have made the ancients literally overpowered, not only ability or immortality with but even their society is focused on improvement and research, it makes no sense for such people to just beat a huge problem and suddenly fall into an emotional depression, keep in mind that they can live for thousands of years so they see time very differently, meaning waiting a couple of thousands of years to meet their sacrificed friends wouldnt be a big deal.


I honestly wish we get a timeline where we join sides with Emet Selch, realize his arguments are right and go against the more emotional scion team, would even be interesting, the WoL going against the scions xd

oh God please dont let this revive. 105 pages is already too much, it doesn't need more.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

oh God please dont let this revive. 105 pages is already too much, it doesn't need more.

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You rang? :p

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

(snip)

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What a based post worthy of thread necromancy if I'm perfectly honest.

Agree with everything you said. It makes no sense given what we know of the Ancients being a society of academics constantly pursuing knowledge, sharing of ideas and debate – but apparently we are supposed to believe Hermes was a very, very special boy who was the only one interested in space and dark matter at all.

Also agreed that the time scale of Ancients being biologically immortal makes a lot of the reasoning around the Sundering pretty bad. Sacrifice a portion of life as Zodiark kibble? Just wait a couple of centuries or millenia for life to reflourish. Maybe give them time to grieve and learn. But clearly Venat had to act now in order to prevent her civilisation from, at some indefinite point in the future, going the way of an alien civilisation she knew nothing of beyond a line or two from Meteion. Maybe.

This plot has to be so contrived to actually work.

https://media.giphy.com/media/srTYyZ1BjBtGU/giphy.gif

VENAT IS A HERETIC

https://i.imgur.com/SQl7k1A_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

I honestly wish we get a timeline where we join sides with Emet Selch, realize his arguments are right and go against the more emotional scion team, would even be interesting, the WoL going against the scions xd

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You and I both.