In the short term there may be a need for maybe 4 to 8 titles so just leave warrior for now (I know it was just an example, point is I think we can work on the easiest matches). Then with time and further expansions there will be additional weapon specs so the possibilities to add and tweak titles will be exponential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
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04-06-2011, 10:29 AMnorthernsky
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04-06-2011, 10:39 AMCairdeas
Or they could call it by its Japanese name of Fighter.
In short Yes, Should they be the most effective option? No. But it should be up to the player to determine black mage shouldn't use swords or axes, not the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikyo
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04-06-2011, 10:51 AMAnathiel
well I mean warrior, fighter, adventurer, etc etc. whatever you want to call it. in the end I'm just worried that you need a generic title to put on the base DoW classes so people who don't want to play paladin, dark knight, or dragoon have something to fall back on if they still want to play a melee character.
and yeah, blm should be able to use an axe but they're definitely gonna suck at it lol. the beauty of this system is that it allows any type of customization you want but you're the one that has to deal with the penalties involved with doing something crazy like that. I'm just a staunch supporter of this idea and I'm gonna see it through to the end or at least until we find out exactly what type of class introduction system they're going to go ahead with. -
04-06-2011, 10:51 AMKirithI understand what grids are, but obviously no one will change the system completely in one night. Adding the titles would already be big enough and it would bring the much needed class uniqueness. Improving customization is all another matter, it brings forth balancing issues and complications many people could frown about. I personally like the grid idea a lot, but if we want to actually try proposing this we should thread lightly. Then again, i may be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
Those who don't want specialized titles can stick with the basic classes. Instead of having particular skills they'll be jacks-of-all-trades, their skill slots free from particular specialized skills or gameplay types.
Actually, i believe many would chose this option for solo and pick titles and related skills for party combat.
If you force everyone to take a specific title and use title skills you virtually bring back FFXI jobs and fixed roles. We need uniqueness, not constraints.
As Cairdeas says. Ideally there would be situations or play types that make it an interesting option. For example, a monster weak to physical damage. Losing the staff's skills and bonus to magic stats would be acceptable thanks to the gained sword damage and skills, while you still use the characteristic BLM nukes. It is also more viable with another staff mage in the party casting enfeeblements and heals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikyo
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04-06-2011, 11:00 AMAnathielI know, thats really what I want is to bring back the ff:xi jobs (well classic ff jobs in general) but I don't want fixed roles. thats why you would need the grid system to bring in customization to the roles. a dark knight being a tank, dd, or enfeebler. a paladin being a tank, dd, or off-heal/buff. dragoon being dd, enmity control, crowd control. if you just put in abilities given to the titles then it's not really doing anything special, it's just slapping a title on a broken system. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, don't get offended. I just want you see why it's important that you do, afterall, have to get complicated with it. Even if you did put in basic titles and didn't give anything to the current classes the outcry would be tremendous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirith
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04-06-2011, 11:37 AMKirithIf you give stat bonuses to titles it means you make them better than classes. It means you can't mix-match classes and titles in a party. You actually create constraints, you force everyone to have a title at some point: it's a return to FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
Plus, the system isn't broken (tell me what's broken?), it's just too boring.
I say:
Titles can use specific role skills (even without a staff a BLM still has fire, thunder etc); small stat bonuses and/or extra skills with specific title gear (so BLM gear would be wearable by anyone but would have mediocre stats, becoming really good only with that title); special title-exclusive skills.
That's all we need and that's the only thing everyone agrees on, i think. And i believe it's the limit of what we have a chance to be listened for (including title requirements).
You play like a BLM (cast BLM spells and use BLM skills), you wear BLM gear and you can still use any weapon you want, with its attached skills.
Adding bonuses to magic would be useless and make the base classes logically weaker, unless they have better gear. But better gear would make BLM weaker, logically. Sure, you can balance it, but it's redundant to go this far. -
04-06-2011, 11:47 AMAnathielLol I think you didn't fully understand what we meant by title stat bonuses. You get small percentage bonuses from your title based on your equipped weapon specialization. Giving the title those bonuses allows the titles to be more than just locked into whatever weapon spec you give them and it allows you to implement new weapons into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirith
And yes, you do force everyone to get a title, just like you had to have a subjob in ff:xi and you have to place your talent point into a certain spec in other games. But my solution to that was to have a generic title that give balanced percentage bonuses to the base DoW classes so you you're not forced to play dark knight, paladin, or dragoon.
And on another note, we have no idea what yoshi-p will listen to lol, but if we completely flesh out these ideas to encompass all variables and present them in an ordered and logical manner THAT is probably the best way to get listened to. -
04-06-2011, 12:52 PMKirithYes, so we have to keep it as simple as possible. Simple to understand and simple for them to implement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
I understood what you mean by title stat bonuses and i also agree that the way you suggest is viable. What i don't get is why you would like it more.
- You practically remake FFXI jobs:
starter jobs (classes) > level requirement > advanced jobs (titles) [solo, party, etc.]
it's a form of evolution, from worst to better.
You start as a Gladiator or a Marauder and become...a Warrior or a Fighter? You gain stat boosts and gain a generic title and generic fighting skills. As a warrior you have better stats than equal levels of GLD or MRD, which means its useless for them to level the classes further. We have to cap the levels of those then, otherwise players will feel the system is broken. The classes thus become starter jobs. If you make different level requirements to get a title you will force people to level the classes even though they are weaker...
- I suggest the following:
classes > you want to specialize > level requirement > titles (bonus skills and title gear) [party, behest, instances]
classes > jack of all trades > level the classes to gain specific skills > strong all-rounder class [solo, quests, etc.]
its a form of specialization, from generic to specific, and you can chose.
It's longer to schematize, but it's not a change, it's an expansion. In a party specialized roles will give forth to party strategies, while in solo you can still play with the current system.
I think it's more dynamic and thus entertaining than to reach your title and forget about classes. -
04-06-2011, 01:14 PMCadaceus
Just as a suggestion, you mentioned armors favoring titles as well as the jobs. Well from my viewpoint of how you mention it this would mean since a favored piece of gear is more beneficial to one job type than another it would create a somewhat confusing conflict between jobs of a similar yet different type. Say for instance there is a piece of armor that favors Marauder but doesn't favor DRK. The effectiveness of that piece of gear would drop if you were using it as such under the current system. What if instead of a "favored item" for titles it just simply gains small extra bonuses while using a particular title as opposed to losing effectiveness when used with a non-favored class. So for example a piece of gear might normally give 50 defense, +20 HP, +2 Str might instead give 60 def, +30 HP, and +4 str instead when used with a favored title. Just a suggestion I don't know if its been brought up before but it just makes it so that even if you weren't using a particular title you didn't lose any benefits from the armor.
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04-06-2011, 01:28 PMAnathiel
The system that I wanted to implement, let's say dark knight. its gladiator > dark knight. When leveling my gladiator I also level my dark knight, upon reaching the next tier of dark knight I can choose to put bonus points in whatever option is given to optimize the play style I want. I reaaly feel focusing on my warrior idea isn't really the point I wanted to make, rather it was an idea to further augment base classes using a title that would play differently than drk and pld. You're not evolving the weapon spec, you're augmenting your weapon spec with abilities/spells from the title. There's no need to put a cap on your weapon specilization because titles are interchangable and you level your title with your weapon spec.
Now I 100% agree with you that certain titles should be allowed to carry over their spells to any given equipped weapon spec but, the point of the percentages is to augment a play style that will allow you to play a weapon spec in a idfferent manner using the bonuses given by the title. Its not limiting a spec to a title, its opening up the weapon specs with the title.
Cairdeas and I had a very indepth discussion on what you're talking about right now about a week or two ago and the schematics for what I'm trying to describe are much more well written by him than by me. I hope you'll go back and look for them. And to be honest I feel like we're. Having the same idea, I'm just not explaining myself properly. The reasoning behind my warrior class was to be that jack of all trades title you mentioned. The title is just there so you can make your marauder a better tank, or your gladiator a better DD. I think I shouldn't ha veused warrior as the example though it seems to have worked against me. But without the bonuses given by a title really, that just means your weapon specialization determines your play style with little room for customization that could properly be implemented in most playing situations.