Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

The "trinity" system in MMOs is just a popular meme that probably originally developed because it was the most optimal way to kill. At some point I assume someone figured, "we get a high defence character just to hold the mobs, you keep him alive and then we can defeat this monster even with our party as we'll last long enough to damage him down to 0." And it worked so people stuck with the system, then developers eventually started designing encounters and classes(jobs) around having people performing these roles, I suppose.

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The system largely developed organically. In old mmos and muds like eq and before you basically had to build your own enmity tools. On top of that almost anyone who could hold a mob on them was a tank in those days. In eq for example at various times warriors, paladins, shadow knights(the 3 tanks admittedly), shaman(healer/debuffer), monk(one of the top dps in the game), and ranger(a dps) were all tanks. And warrior THE raid tank was around the top 3rd or 4th dps(either tied or slightly above ranger and just behind rogue and monk).

In that game to hold hate varried by class, warrior needed weapons that proc poisons and stuns, monk did it through raw damage, and the others used spells with similar effects to the warriors procs(poisons, stuns, slows etc). The idea that a tank didn't do damage was pretty foreign in those days. It made sense that tank damage was somewhat lower than true dps but the goal was still to maximize damage while tanking(heck in eq berserk tanking was a thing for warriors and god their damage was scary doing that). I'm guessing WoW is to blame but I'm not sure, but somehow after those days everyone got in their head that a tank's damage should be utterly irrelevant and I'm not really sure why.

Why not just make Tenacity have a greater weight on attack power? As is, tanks are gonna need 2 stats to be high to eat damage and hit hard. Why not the tank only stat? Yeah, it's a substat, but we already have 2 "primary" stats anyways

I feel like this thread is just extremist...its not one or the other...any (GOOD) player knows, that a GOOD tank knows how to hold aggro...dps, and mitigate attacks. Period...

If OP gets their way, then your just asking for bad tanks, as a tank, i try to go dps as much as possible, but that takes skill...i HAVE to keep an eye on the aggro bars to make sure no one steals it from me...thats MY JOB...if your a tank losing aggro...thats your own fault and u need to learn your role better. If i need to mitigate a TB? then i need to be rdy for it, either with a cd or pop my tank stance to keep stress off healers.

In my static group during raid content...we have some HEAVY hitters on my team, i can still pull and maintain dps stance ONLY...no tank stance, WHILE holding aggro and mitigating all in dps stance....but thats bcc i know the fights....my dps use lucid dreaming and diversion..and the OT shirks me...if i know a TB is coming? i pop a cd or 2, or mix with tank stance, then go back to DPS....ALL WHILE watching my aggro bar to make sure no one steals from me....thats what separates the bad tanks from the good ones.

In normal dungeons and roulette's....ill mostly just play it safe and go tank stance for 90% of the dungeon with mobs, and then do boss fights in dps stance to help clear stuff faster...or stance dance depending on the situation and the quality of the healer/dps im playing with at the time....whatever i KNOW i can do well without stressing healers or worrying dps. ITS BALANCE....NOT ONE OR THE OTHER. Dont tel tanks to stop dpsing, and dont tell tanks to go only aggro combo...a good tank knows when to do both and how to balance it.

If u wanna get REALLY accurate...this OP should read "Dont tank dps IF YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO DO YOUR JOB PROPERLY"

I don't see why, once you've learned the content, that you wouldn't want to maximize DPS as a tank. Priority 1 - hold aggro. Priority 2 - mitigate when needed. Priority 3 - DPS. Holding aggro is ingrained in the tanking jobs from the first dungeon. Mitigation comes with learning content. Once you know the content, you're selling yourself short to not try maximizing DPS.

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Originally Posted by Tihm81

Once you know the content, you're selling yourself short to not try maximizing DPS.

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Except that has nothing to do with the thread. The thread is specifically calling out those tanks that try to Max their dps at the cost of causing the group they're in to fail, whether it be by lackluster mitigation, dps standing in bad and causing the tanks to die from lack of heals, etc. Succeeding in content is #1 priority, but most people would rather sabotage a run for the sake of their own parse than adapt to the needs of whatever unfortunate group they get.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Except that has nothing to do with the thread. The thread is specifically calling out those tanks that try to Max their dps at the cost of causing the group they're in to fail, whether it be by lackluster mitigation, dps standing in bad and causing the tanks to die from lack of heals, etc. Succeeding in content is #1 priority, but most people would rather sabotage a run for the sake of their own parse than adapt to the needs of whatever unfortunate group they get.

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It sounds like you're generalizing "tanks that try to Max their dps" as causing you're group to fail. That's unfair. 99.9% of the tanks in this forum didn't ever group up with you. Succeeding in content is the responsibility of the entire party. A tank has to hold aggro, learn content to mitigate properly and DPS to contribute to the success of a party. In your case(s) of failing content, I'll bet the other party members had different ideas.

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Originally Posted by Tihm81

In your case(s) of failing content.

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Well, see, I've had one or two wipes in content, but I've never had it outright fail, speaking as a tank that keeps in dps stance as much as possible.

Conversely, I have no problem with adapting how I approach content to the needs of my particular group... within reason, whether that involves me playing more defensively, making smaller pulls, or even rearranging my CDs. I acknowledge the limits of my group and adapt.

This thread is about tanks that do none of the above to the detriment of the clear.

I disagree. The thread clearly points out towards a disgruntlement of the tank DPS meta, and wholly expects tanks to remain in tank stance while maintaining aggro and mitigating damage claiming that it's not part of the tank's job to do DPS. It is. The argument for tanks to do DPS is stronger than that of healers considering how A- tank combos (threat or otherwise) all do damage and B- there is hardly ever a need in the game for both tanks in an 8 man raid to stay in tank stance the entire time. I don't disagree with the idea that tanks still should prioritize tank technicalities like holding threat, mitigating damage and positioning the boss so that it causes the least amount of nuisance for the party but if you can do all of that and put out high numbers, then power to you. A tank who won't leave their tank stance for an 8 man raid is just as bad as a tank who won't AOE on a dungeon pull. You contribute more value to your party if you do both of those things, so please, do them.

This is why Savage and extreme primals still have such a low amount of clear considering how many of these people do 400dps each even in the current gear which is nearly impossible if you are even doing any combo. It's ridiculous but we raiders are probably just too toxic for you guys, right?

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Originally Posted by Heatkrieg

I disagree. The thread clearly points out towards a disgruntlement of the tank DPS meta, and wholly expects tanks to remain in tank stance while maintaining aggro and mitigating damage claiming that it's not part of the tank's job to do DPS. It is. The argument for tanks to do DPS is stronger than that of healers considering how A- tank combos (threat or otherwise) all do damage and B- there is hardly ever a need in the game for both tanks in an 8 man raid to stay in tank stance the entire time. I don't disagree with the idea that tanks still should prioritize tank technicalities like holding threat, mitigating damage and positioning the boss so that it causes the least amount of nuisance for the party but if you can do all of that and put out high numbers, then power to you. A tank who won't leave their tank stance for an 8 man raid is just as bad as a tank who won't AOE on a dungeon pull. You contribute more value to your party if you do both of those things, so please, do them.

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People just need to realize that you can't compare this game to other games. Different game different system. Why do people keep on arguing how TERA works better etc when this game isn't anywhere near TERA? Better have FFXIV be TERA2, right? In this game, tanks and healers are secondary DPS. Don't get stuck to your 'fantasy' tank or healer guidelines, because not everything is a yes or no.